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Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes teach me about the Great Lakes. Welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice get people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I work with Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant. And I'm joined today by nobody because my co host had to bail. I mean, we'll have a guest, but I don't have a co host, because I couldn't make it at the last minute. I blame her for that. But it's probably my fault, let's be honest. Uh, but I'm excited today because I've been really getting into lately with this pandemic in particular, I've been getting a lot more into birds. I was in a theologist by training before he became a social scientist. But I've got these kids and we love running around looking at birds. My one year old daughter the other day heard a crow calling and said hi crows and my heart melted. So now I like birds. And so today our guest works for the National Audubon Society. Her name is Giovanna Grande. But let's just go ahead, we'll do some interstitial music, and then we'll bring her in.

Our guest today is Dr. Joanna Grande, a senior spatial ecologist with the National Audubon Society. Joanna, how are you today?

Dr. Joanna Grand 1:22
I'm doing great. How are you doing?

Stuart Carlton 1:23
I'm doing great. Thank you. I'm really like I said in the intro, happy to have you on but I want to understand what it is you do. So what is a spatial? ecologist? Exactly?

Dr. Joanna Grand 1:33
Yeah, that's a great question. And one that I get asked often and it's not so easy to explain, but I will try. So, so basically, the study of spatial ecology is, is the study of how organisms and landscapes are distributed across the surface of the planet. So so as a spatial ecologist, I study that that spatial arrangement of populations and landscapes and how they influence ecological dynamics, and how, for example, more importantly, how humans change and modify the distributions of those populations and landscapes and how that impacts species and, and leads to declines.

Stuart Carlton 2:26
So sort of, sort of the main thing I guess it makes a spatial, is you're looking over what you're calling landscapes, like how, what is the landscape? Is that just like a one field? Or is a much broader than that? How do you even define a landscape? And in the sense that you're using it?

Dr. Joanna Grand 2:39
Yeah, landscape can be any size? Really? There's no limit? I mean, it can it sort of depends who's asking the question. So a landscape to an ant. Very small, you know, could be your coffee cup, versus the entire planet could be a landscape, you know, depending, depending on your perspective and what you're interested in studying. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 3:00
I see. So So really, the space can can really vary? And the types of questions I guess, so it seems like the types of questions you would ask about a coffee cup size landscape? Might be are they different from the ones you asked across a region or a continent or something?

Dr. Joanna Grand 3:15
Yeah, for sure. You know, as a specialty colleges, mainly the data that we use to answer questions about, about modifications to the environment comes from remotely sensed information. So we're low, we mostly look at very broad spatial scales. And, and we get our information at that scale from satellites, airplanes, drones, things that are looking at the looking at the planet from

Stuart Carlton 3:52
far away. Yeah. So once the grid sort of theme to this podcast, it turns out is the importance of all these data sources. Because whenever we talk to or not whenever, but a lot of times when we talk to scientists, they're talking about all these data that they rely on. So So Audubon Society doesn't put out satellites, right? Are these you know, things that are available from government or private corporate corporations, or? Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Joanna Grand 4:11
We don't we don't have our own. But Right, exactly. So there are hundreds, maybe 1000s of satellites at any given time, orbiting the Earth. And so we use, the free data comes usually from the federal government. And so mostly, we use that although there are private corporations that also collect these data. And often those data are available at higher resolution than the publicly available data. But you have to pay for it.

Stuart Carlton 4:41
Yeah. So higher resolution means it's like a more fine grain. What's available? Exactly?

Dr. Joanna Grand 4:46
Yeah. So like, the Landsat satellite, they take their imagery comes in at about 30 meter resolution. Whereas there are other more, the corporate satellites might Much more high resolution than that,

Stuart Carlton 5:02
because the government saves the good stuff for the military, I suspect or the NSA. I'm waving right now as they watch us record this. Okay, so you weren't brought up in society? So that means you must have an interest in birds. How did did that come across the sort of second or was it first Hey, I like birds. Here's how I can study them. Or I like ecology and birds are a cool species to study or a cool clade, whatever the right term is. Yeah, that's

Dr. Joanna Grand 5:28
a great question. Actually, for me. Um, it wasn't just birds. I mean, I've always been interested in, in wildlife and the environment in general. And so actually, my dream when I was a kid was to be Jane Goodall. Sure it was primates. But, you know, life takes different turns. And I ended up in the environmental field. And that led me to the Audubon Society. And now I study birds

Stuart Carlton 6:00
are cool. And so yeah, like I said, in the intro, I'm learning more and more about birds. I know squat about them. But that's okay. But one reason that birds are important new addition to being interesting and beautiful, and all of that is that they use a lot of valuable habitat, right. And when you're studying birds, I think you're also studying things like wetlands and marshes and what have you. So why are and so some of your work has been trying to prioritize that right, looking at different marshes or wetlands and trying to prioritize those for conservation in the case of limited resources. But why are coastal wetlands important for birds? What? What are they? What are they useful for?

Dr. Joanna Grand 6:39
Yeah, so marsh birds are essentially used used coastal wetlands or any wetlands for different stages of their life history. Some of them are what we call obligate Marsh species. So they spend just about all their entire lifecycle in marshes. So foraging, breeding, resting, you know, basically, every aspect of it is in the marsh, then there are some species that that only use marches for part of their lifecycle. So maybe they'll just read in the marsh or forage in the marsh but then they spend other parts of their life elsewhere. And most birds it's it's a critical for marsh birds in general, it's a it's a critical piece of their of their lifecycle, right

Stuart Carlton 7:30
and sort of sense you're using it. So for example, Redwing blackbirds, which are these really obnoxious birds that I love, because their coloration is just so striking. And because the males are just ridiculous, they will stand on like a tree and just like be obnoxious, like, oh, chill out, man. But I like that, you know, if you're gonna come come strong, but so they'll they'll, like fly around in the sort of the local Marsh, the salary bug, we call it here, but they'll also be in cornfields or whatever. So would those be marsh birds by your definition, or is that something else?

Dr. Joanna Grand 8:02
Those are wetland birds. Yeah. They mostly use wetlands. Exactly. And they're, they're pretty ubiquitous. They're, they're kind of, they're kind of everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So those are those are wetland birds, I

Stuart Carlton 8:14
would call them and then some of the Oblates so obligate, I assume that's just from that word, like obligated or obliged. So they have to stay there or else. They die. I guess. So what are some examples of those just so I can put some links in the show notes for our listeners?

Dr. Joanna Grand 8:28
Oh, let's see. So there are these Marsh bird, this type of marsh bird called secretive marsh birds. Yeah, they're, they're hard to find for. You can tell from the name that they they they hide in the marshes and they they don't vocalize very often. And so a lot of these are obligates, they're like the Bitterns and the Greaves and rails, animals like that.

Stuart Carlton 8:55
Well, I'm putting these on my to find life list, I will find a secretive Marshburn and report back. That's great. Oh, and so yeah, I'm from the southeast. I was born and raised and moved here a couple of years ago. And so when I think of like wetlands and stuff, I think like the coastal swamps we had in New Orleans, or in Louisiana, where I grew up, and then you know, throw like Florida and Alabama, Mississippi, and all that, what's around the Great Lakes. So they're, I assume they're just a ton of wetlands here and we got the lakes, right. But what are their different types? When you're thinking about these? do you classify the wetlands to what are the different ways that you look at those?

Dr. Joanna Grand 9:29
Yeah, so there are different types of wetlands and specifically in the Great Lakes. There's three different types. There's barrier wetlands, which are more protected, and they're, you know, they're found in where there's barrier islands protecting them from the open water. Then you've got the clustering wetlands which are more open to the to the lake itself, although not, not completely, they're more in Bay A's. And then there's also riverine wetlands, which are mostly found at the mouths of rivers where they open up the lakes.

Stuart Carlton 10:11
And viewers almost always call them readers and I both did it. Again, if readers or viewers are interested in learning more, go ahead and look down at your podcast player right now. And we'll have some links in the show notes to some resources about those. That's great. And so we have this variation in different types. And so part of what what you work on is trying to prioritize these were conservation. And so if they need to be conserved, that means there's threats right. Now, I'm going to guess that the threats are things we hear about a lot like climate change, runoff, eutrophication, those sorts of things. Are those like the big picture threats? Are there other ones that that I'm not thinking of?

Dr. Joanna Grand 10:45
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, sea level rise is huge. Human Development, obviously, has been one of the biggest problems over the past, you know, 100 years. Of course, there's pollution, invasive species, right. pation, drainage of wetlands, all kinds of things. But yeah, mostly the usual suspects. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 11:07
yeah, I hear that. And so so when you're trying to think about this, trying to prioritize wetlands across the Great Lakes, for conservation, I mean, you're talking about trade offs. And essentially, we're what are the things that go into trying to even approach that problem? Because it seems impossible to me, frankly. Because, I mean, if you think about the Great Lakes, I go from one Minnesota over to New York, essentially, plus, we have Canada. And so I don't even know how you would begin to investigate that problem. So what what are kind of the thoughts that go into that?

Dr. Joanna Grand 11:36
Yeah, so you know, of course, everybody comes at prioritization from their own perspective. And since I work at the National Audubon Society, our perspective is mainly around the birds. And so we use birds in general as indicators of healthy systems. You know, so So for us, marsh birds, marsh birds really tell us where the important wetlands are just by how they're distributed already in the environment. You know, and a lot of them are still in places that are highly modified, you know, very urbanized areas. But at some point, you know, we need to just, we need to be careful that we don't cross a line at which those species then move out of those areas. So, so a lot of our priority sites that we found were in highly urbanized areas, and those I think, are pretty important to pay attention to.

Stuart Carlton 12:30
And so, so, I think you did some modeling here, right? Probably some, I'm gonna guess some specialty call it social ecological modeling, I suppose. And so you put variables into their, I guess, right, what like, and so some of that's going to be from this satellite data, what kind of variables to the extent that you can explain it to people like me? What what type of variables go into your models?

Dr. Joanna Grand 12:52
Yeah. So. So like I said, we study, we studied these things from a 30,000 foot view. So so our environmental data that went into the models were things like, you know, we look at, we look at sort of a an area around every every point where we collect Earth data, and we and we can tell from satellite imagery, what kinds of land uses are happening in that area. So we look at things like proportion of agriculture, within within the area that's being surveyed, or proportion of impervious surfaces, proportion of open water, or proportion of different habitat, wetland, vegetation types, like herbaceous vegetation or woody vegetation. We also looked at lake levels over time. Yeah, that's pretty much it, I think, Oh, and also invasive species, we had some information on the distribution of Phragmites across the coastal web

Stuart Carlton 13:53
Phragmites. Let's pretend for the sake of our listeners. I'm not because it's true at all that I don't know what Phragmites is.

Dr. Joanna Grand 14:00
Yeah, so it's a common read. It's an invasive species, and it's everywhere. And it's a very big problem for wetlands because it really basically pushes out native species and creates these like walls of reasons.

Stuart Carlton 14:13
I see. And so so you're looking at kind of the habitat characteristics of these areas? Is this agricultural land? Is it impervious? So is it concrete or, you know, buildings or parking lots, and vegetation and stuff? And so you sort of assign a score essentially? Is that a fair way to put it to these different variables? And then, yeah,

Dr. Joanna Grand 14:33
eventually we get it's there's a bunch of different phases in the modeling. And eventually we do get to the, to the point where, where we figure out where every species could potentially inhabit, what would be a suitable habitat for every bird that were modeling. And then and then we use that information to assign a score to that particular site, depending on how many species are using it and how and what abundances

Stuart Carlton 14:58
and then when it comes time to like invest in resource It's just a question of then looking at, you know, the score and various other factors, I guess, you know, maybe there's political factors, which it sounds like maybe you didn't account for.

Dr. Joanna Grand 15:09
Yeah, yeah, we don't get too into the political piece of it. At least I don't in my in my work, that's we have a whole department that. But we, but yeah, we look at things like whether it's already protected or not. That's a big piece. But then of course, you know, that does that doesn't answer the whole question. Because even if it's protected on paper, it doesn't really mean it's, it's actually being

Stuart Carlton 15:34
protected and protected. And so one thing when I think about models and modelling one one question that I think comes up a lot, that's fair. It's like uncertainty. So you're doing all this stuff from afar? I think your your New York is alright. Do you know if you give me four or five guesses? I'll remember it was just yesterday when I looked it up in Massachusetts. So you're there, Massachusetts? It's a great lakes? No, it's not. It's connected to a Great Lakes State. I'm going to delete that. So I don't look like a moron. And that the full extent of my morality is not revealed. But so you're in Massachusetts, and you're getting all these data. So so like, there's got to be uncertainty, right? How can you how can you know that? You can't know. But like, how do you deal with that uncertainty, I suppose when you're doing this kind of work?

Dr. Joanna Grand 16:20
Yeah, that's, that's a huge issue. And we have lots of ways of sort of Quantifying uncertainty. But and there are lots and lots of sources of uncertainty. There in you know, there's uncertainty in every single data set that we include in our models, right, from down to like, did we actually count the number of birds that were there? Did we see them all? Did we, you know, what's the resolution of the of the satellite data? And how is the information classified? There's tons of uncertainty. And so because this is so pervasive in in my work, I like to always think about a quote from a statistician named George Box, then George Box, yes, he. He said, I think it was back in the 70s. He said that all models are wrong, but some are useful. So I like to, I like to think about that whenever I produce a model and wonder about the uncertainty. And you know, another thing he said, I'll just, I'll quote this, because I think it's so it's just so perfect. Since all models are wrong, the scientists must be alert to what is importantly, wrong, it is inappropriate to be concerned about mice when there are tigers abroad. So so in my mind, this means, you know, we're in the middle of the sixth extinction crisis, right, 3 billion birds have been lost since the 1970s. We're, everything's a mess. We need to take action now with the best information that we have available. So you know, we spend a lot of time trying to get these models as as right as they can possibly be. And but we know, they're never, they're never really, truly accurate. But it's this information we have right now. And and we need to act on it. And what's the worst that can happen? So we protect maybe an area that doesn't have the most species, it's okay, we protected it, we protected something. You know, I don't worry too much about about how wrong models are, as long as you know, we get the basics right,

Stuart Carlton 18:30
there reminds me of another quote that I use all the time, which has been attributed to everybody, but I'll say John Maynard Keynes, and that is, it's, it's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong. That's a great one. So So you would say then that you're modeling? Of course, there's Arizona uncertainty, but it is useful. It is roughly right, and then it it gives kind of a framework for thinking about these problems? Or am I putting words in your mouth? I apologize? If so.

Dr. Joanna Grand 18:55
No, no, no, I think that's perfect. I think it's great. And, and a lot of the way I think about these types of models, they're, they're kind of initial screenings, you know, like, we can't go out and survey every wetland and the Great Lakes and figure out what's really what really needs protecting and what really needs restoration. I mean, it's just there's no time to do that kind of work. So we use this, this remote data to get sort of a first sort of screening of the whole landscape and what that looks like and then we can go in and in a more targeted way, on the in the field, and actually try to validate some of this stuff.

Stuart Carlton 19:29
What blows my mind thinking about it, this is it. This is even doable, though, like, like, your field can't be that old in terms of, or at least the types of stuff you work on, right? Because this satellite stuff has to have been available for it to work.

Dr. Joanna Grand 19:40
It's true. It's true. We do you know, at this point, have data satellite data back to the 70s. So you know, it's been information has been around for a while and it just continues to exponentially you know, get better and and there's more of it, and it's more available. So the the field is really just You know, kind of exploding?

Stuart Carlton 20:01
Yeah. So how is the and this is a tangent. So I apologize for that. Other than I think it's interesting. So how does that change? Like? Like, I mean, as technology just keeps getting crazier and crazier right, in terms of what they can do. Now, there's the Internet of Things, which, as far as I know, is not actually a thing. But maybe it is. It's sure it's a buzzword, you can put in your proposals. And so so like, what is what does this look like in 10 years? Do you think in terms of what what what is technology going to enable you to? What questions are you going to be able to answer? Do you think in like, 1015 years that you maybe can't approach now, as technology moves?

Dr. Joanna Grand 20:33
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. I think that over the next in the future, I think that things are gonna move more toward automation of monitoring. You know, like, now, we spent a lot of time and resources, paying people to go out into the field and collect, collect data on biodiversity and, and endangered species. And in the future, you know, there are going to be things and they're coming, they're starting already to be available, like acoustic monitoring techniques, where you could just put a recorder out into the middle of nowhere and have it collect all the data on animals and their sounds and create the soundscapes that then we can then take back to the lab and analyze without ever having to send somebody out into the field except to put the recorder out. Or things like that, I think are gonna really revolutionize

Stuart Carlton 21:21
Yeah, that reminds me of some of the work that Brian Pichon AUSkey here at Purdue is doing. What does he call his thing? Oh, boy, soundscapes. Yeah, soundscapes project that he does, is all into that. That's, that's really, really cool stuff. Yeah, it's fascinating to see where that goes on my field of social science. Like, I feel like there are smarter people than me who are going to figure this out in terms of how to use technology to collect data. There'll be really useful as survey response rates keep going down. Yeah, it's an exciting time. A terrifying time. But it's exciting time to. Okay, good. Well, so thinking about birds and wetlands, degradations and stuff like that. So, if people are really worried about that, what are some things they can do I know that might the challenge is this these big problems, like I can't do squat about deforestation, or, you know, like, climate change as an individual, it's really hard to do. But are there steps that people can take? In your opinion?

Dr. Joanna Grand 22:17
Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's sort of cliche, but like, every little thing that every person does kind of adds up to something bigger. Right. And, um, you know, I think one of the important things to think about, especially if you're concerned with coastal wetlands, you know, is if you're, if you're lucky enough to be or maybe unlucky enough to be one of those people who has coastal property at this point. You know, I think it's really important to think about things like living shorelines, if you're trying to mitigate, you know, impacts of sea level rise, not to just go ahead and put up a concrete bulkhead, but But you use living shoreline techniques that stabilize the earth with natural materials, and also provide habitat for animals. So they provide these important COVID benefits for both animals and people. So that's one thing that people can think about, you know, obviously, the usual ways to protect the environment like not using toxic chemicals and you know, flushing them into the, into the groundwater or things like that. There's also you know, ways to, if you want to really do something more, on the ground, you can volunteer for Audubon, Great Lakes and go out and help clean up the wetlands. They have these these stewardship volunteers there that that are always welcome. Obviously, not happening during a pandemic. But hopefully one day this will be over and we can get back to work there.

Stuart Carlton 23:42
If not, we won't have to worry about it. So that's fine. Oh, that's dark. I apologize.

Dr. Joanna Grand 23:49
For that, I'm glad you

Stuart Carlton 23:53
know, those two sounds like some concrete steps and boy, you're speaking my language are some of that I will put a link in the show notes to the webinar that I led on living shorelines back when I was a Texas Sea Grant. Yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, one more question that was not on the initial list. But now I'm curious is so in my work life, my job is to really look at the subtleties of sort of the human experience and people's attitudes and opinions. And so in the rest of my life, I like to not look at those subtleties, so I'm just gonna want you to name something here. No subtlety. What is the best bird? You got to crush crush the hearts of almost every bird out there? And then I'll tell you the actual laser.

Dr. Joanna Grand 24:34
This is a terrible question, but I guess I'm gonna say the wood brush wood thrush.

Stuart Carlton 24:40
Tell me why it's the best bird.

Dr. Joanna Grand 24:42
I love the wood threads because I love it song. It sounds like a flute. Really? Yes. And if you you can go online and find recordings of it. It's just the most beautiful sound and I hear it all the time around my house. And it's just that familiar sound I that I just, I just love to hear. All right.

Stuart Carlton 25:02
Well thrush I will put that in the show notes. I'll put links to it and I will listen to some what thrush. We're recording this on a Friday behind the scenes. So this afternoon, I will be listening to what thrush songs

well join. This has all been really interesting. But that's actually not why we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes this week, we invite you to teach me about the Great Lakes ask these two questions. And the first one is, if you could choose to either have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, which one would you choose?

Dr. Joanna Grand 25:40
This is a timely question, actually.

Stuart Carlton 25:44
We've been doing this or

Dr. Joanna Grand 25:48
I was just you. So I'll answer the question. And I'll tell you why. It's timely. It's, for me, I would go with a great sandwich for lunch. And it's timely because my my son and I have been really researching very hard. How to whether we can find a panini maker that's non toxic, because we love paninis. And apparently, this is such a thing does not exist in it. They all have Teflon, and I won't buy things with Teflon. So I struggle I struggle to make a great Canadian.

Stuart Carlton 26:21
Yeah, that is a big challenge. We we've had the same issue with like waffle makers. And I found one that was made out of cast aluminum by some company. But I still think it had a secret coating on it. I don't know. Yeah, there's always a secret.

Dr. Joanna Grand 26:37
I think last iron is your best bet.

Stuart Carlton 26:38
Yeah, I've got a cast iron griddle. But no, I could just put the cast iron pan on top of the cast iron griddle. It will crush my stove. But but you get the nice Panini, so

Dr. Joanna Grand 26:48
let's go. Absolutely, that could work. Sounds good.

Stuart Carlton 26:52
And then oh, I forgot the critical follow ups here. Massachusetts. Are you in the Boston area? Or?

Dr. Joanna Grand 26:58
No, I'm in the western mess. Okay,

Stuart Carlton 27:00
so there are other areas of Massachusetts. Okay, so when I'm visiting your area, where can I go to get other than opinion? Eat your house? Where can I go? To get a really great sandwich?

Dr. Joanna Grand 27:11
Well, that's the problem. We don't have a great sandwich place here. I've been complaining about this. I've been living in this area for about 10 years and I've been complaining and nobody's listening sandwich.

Stuart Carlton 27:20
Those are it's just you hate you. Hate to hear it. Yeah, same here in West Lafayette for pizza. There's not a single good piece of pizza in this whole town. But the people who grew up here, don't believe me. And I'm like, trust me. There's no good pizza. I've tried to I know the place you're talking about is not good pizza. Hello, Ethan for listening. All right. Great. And our second question is what is one piece of life advice that you have for our listeners? It can be big or little serious or silly. We've had people you know, quote, Rupal people give the advice they give to their graduate students or their children. Sometimes it's the same. So whatever you think we just like to leave the listeners with something to reflect on as they close out the podcast?

Dr. Joanna Grand 28:01
Yeah, I guess I would say that my advice is to learn one new thing every day

Stuart Carlton 28:11
like writing it down as we speak. And today I've learned about the beautiful wood thrush song that I will spend the next few minutes reveling in after this. That's perfect. You're done for the day for the day. Good. Go find a panini and take a nap. Excellent. undergrad, where can people go if they want to find out more about the work that you're doing?

Dr. Joanna Grand 28:30
Oh, yeah, I think go to our website for sure. The National Audubon Society website, we have a page specifically dedicated for the science work that that happens at Avon. So a lot of it is covered there. Yeah, that's the best. That's the best way to get the best way to get the information. Yep.

Stuart Carlton 28:49
Well, perfect. We will enjoy doing that. Then. Jonah Grande, senior spatial ecologist for the National Audubon Society. Thank you so much for coming on and teaching us about the Great Lakes.

Dr. Joanna Grand 28:57
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Stuart Carlton 29:28
That was really great. Thank you to join us for coming on. And thank you to you for listening. I encourage you to follow us on social media feeds you can find Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant, all over social media at i Li N Sea Grant, you can follow the show on Twitter at Teach Great Lakes. And of course, I encourage you to check out the Sea Grant webpage at I see grants.org And that's all we got for this week. We'll see you the first Monday of every month and the third Mondays of most months. Thanks stay safe and keep great and those lakes

Let's kill two birds with 100 sorry let's catch to two marshes with one satellite and