Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript, we apologize for any errors. If you notice any problems, please email the show at teachmeaboutthegreatlakes@gmail.com. Thank you.

Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes teach me about the Great Lakes. Welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice monthly usually podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice get people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I work with Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant at Purdue University, and I'm joined today by Carolyn Foley. How are you doing today, Carolyn?

Carolyn Foley 0:25
Honestly, Stuart, I'm a tiny bit cold but generally doing well. Thanks. How are you?

Stuart Carlton 0:29
I am also good. I'm not that cold right now. My feet are cold, actually. But I think that's just because I have no socks on and I should have socks. Alright, so life advice here wear socks. Anyway, no, I'm really excited this week, Carolyn, because we're I think we're gonna have a fascinating conversation with a couple of researchers from University of Windsor, actually.

Carolyn Foley 0:49
Yes, the University of Windsor. It's a fabulous place in southwestern Ontario, looking forward to having a conversation about how they're working in their lab to kind of maybe think a little bit differently about how to do

Stuart Carlton 1:03
science. Yeah, no, this is really cool. So the we're gonna speak with her name is Dr. Katherine February and someone else from her lab, Katrina Keisha. And to me, they're the work they're doing in terms of traditional local ecological knowledge and partnering with indigenous peoples is, is really both exciting and fascinating and inspirational. And so I'm excited to have this conversation. But first, I would like to point out that Dr. February is a researcher which means it is time for the coveted researcher feature a theme.

Researcher feature, a feature which your researcher teaches about. Our guests today are Dr. Catherine February and Katrina Keisha ag from the University of Windsor. Dr. February is the Canada Research Chair in freshwater restoration ecology, and assistant professor. She's also the director of the healthy headwaters lab, and the co director of the organic analysis and nutrient lab. Katrina is the research partnership coordinator and field guide and also the indigenous partnership coordinator for fish cast at the healthy headwaters lab. And all of this is within the Great Lakes Institute for Environmental Research at the University of Windsor, Windsor, Catherine and Katrina. How are you all today?

Dr. Catherine Febria 2:29
Okay, thanks for inviting us to be here.

Katrina Keeshig 2:32
I'm good. Thanks. Good. We're

Stuart Carlton 2:34
excited to have you. Okay, so. So the whole concept of this is not that this podcast is totally true. I am completely ignorant when it comes to so many great lakes things. And so I'm gonna start. No joke, people think I'm being modest. I'm not. Anyway, but so your group released called the Healthy headwaters lab. Okay. So I can roughly figure out what that is what a headwater is. That's like the source, like think of a stream or something. What is a headwater? And what do y'all do with those?

Dr. Catherine Febria 3:05
Yeah, so that headwaters are essentially the source of our streams and rivers, wetlands and Great Lakes. It's where water runs off the landscape or from groundwater and comes up to the land and joins larger rivers downstream. These are small streams and rivers Crick's that we call locally. You know, these are the places where a lot of us interact with water. And they're also the water the types of water bodies that end up getting either bulldozed or buried, destroyed, or culverted. You know, for every one large river, there's hundreds to 1000s of these sort of headwater tributary streams. And so our work just wants to continue to do work, to quantify them, understand them, and really just amplify research in those small waterways for the benefit of you know, restoration and conservation.

Carolyn Foley 3:55
And when you're talking about headwaters that feed into the Great Lakes, I mean, how far in the Great Lakes region how far inland in like Southern Ontario, or throughout the Midwestern states or stuff like that, how far did they reach,

Dr. Catherine Febria 4:08
they reached to the very tips in the edges of our drainage basins. These are, you know, mostly they've been farmed over, or they've been buried in urban places. They've been deforested. But, you know, if you look at a Google Earth map, you can almost see a lot of those paleo channels or those historical channels that once used to, you know, where water used to gather and move downstream. So they're everywhere. If you look,

Stuart Carlton 4:33
so the water would gather. So paleo channels, that means like, the sort of,

Dr. Catherine Febria 4:38
yeah, streams that used to be their agriculture development would like bury them over and create new drains or or streams,

Stuart Carlton 4:47
okay, so So there would be like the source will be underground or maybe just a place where a lot of rain or snowmelt or whatever gather and then and then over time as people develop the area there for ag or maybe for I don't know, shopping malls Not that those are things anymore. For kids out there, that's what we used to call the Internet. And, and so they. And so after covering up like the water just when the stream said they'd like reach, analyze or just kind of dry up what is what happens?

Dr. Catherine Febria 5:13
Yeah, so I mean, these small headwater streams are dynamic, they go between being wet and being dry. And, you know, they might they call these hydro periods. So they this is a normal component of our ecosystem, when water, when it rains, it runs off the landscape into lower, you know, lower elevations. And when they're, when they're wet enough, and long enough to hold water, you know, you see these channels form, sometimes it's fed by groundwater, you know, and groundwater might come to the surface and together that, you know, forms a stream channel. So, you know, maybe part of the year, a majority of the year, they might be dry. So that might lead, you know, people who are wanting to if you wanted to farm that landscape or build on that landscape, you might think that it doesn't flow and therefore it doesn't exist, but like, that's where that's where, you know, land and water and people meet, it's these headwater places and spaces.

Stuart Carlton 6:05
And so what kind of research do you do there? You talked about a little bit but I mean, so it's primarily biophysical research. Is it looking at how these have changed as a result of the anthropogenic influence or what?

Dr. Catherine Febria 6:16
Yeah, so I'm, I'm an ecologist by training a freshwater ecologist by training. And most of it's been over a decade now. But my PhD work was on small headwater streams in the speed river catchment, which is, you know, runs through the city of Guelph, and here in south, Southern Ontario, and, you know, my work really started with understanding the connection of all of those things like, how does the presence and absence of water interact with the stream bed, which we call the hypertrophic zone, and how does that influence the transport of nutrients, especially carbon in the microbial communities that we rely on to do things like, you know, retain nutrients or cycle nutrients, and ultimately, that has an influence on the invertebrates and the fish that inhabit these spaces. So it really is an ecologist perspective, thinking about how all of these are connected. So that's the lens I bring to it. So the research we do is to understand, especially because with, you know, more and more human impacts, looking at these places for spaces for restoration, and conservation is really important. And so in the last decade, I've really brought and tried to center the social part of the ecology, we do it in alignment with the act, the science that we do, or the natural science that we do.

Carolyn Foley 7:31
Right, and you said, so the space where you are conducting your research is the place where I forget how you said it, it was where water and water and go meet? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So what, who are the people that you are working with? Mostly? Like, what types of groups are you guys connecting with?

Dr. Catherine Febria 7:50
So currently, in the Great Lakes, a lot of the communities we interact with our local and indigenous knowledge holders. So the farming community is really big in southwestern Ontario, and in our pocket of Essex County, where Windsor is situated. And then ultimately, also, as you know, in a Canadian institution, and as you know, an immigrant settler, myself, I completely recognize and honor the fact that there have been people that called this place home and have those rights and our, you know, are traditional knowledge holders and rights holders for this area. So there's so much knowledge and I guess, responsibility that honoring that, that I also really center local communities in the work that I do. So in one sense, farmers, settler farmer communities are the ones that are doing a lot of the farming locally. But equally, this is the territorial the traditional territory of the three fires Confederacy. And so I also begin there.

Stuart Carlton 8:47
That's interesting. So that's a focus that you don't necessarily hear a lot of economy, you know, there's a lot of people who work with traditional ecological knowledge or local ecological knowledge or whatever, but it seems like your group really goes out of their way to explicitly incorporate that. And can you give me examples of like, how has that influenced your science? Do you think?

Dr. Catherine Febria 9:06
Um, well, I guess, you know, for the past five years before, you know, our lab just really became became enjoined the University of Windsor last year. But for five years previous to that I worked with farming communities and local Maori communities in Aotearoa, New Zealand, so I was doing a lot of working on headwater streams, doing restoration, trying to develop actionable science to inform, you know, farmers and communities in general. So that thread of you know, working with local practitioners on the ground is, you know, completely consistent with restoration and what we need in restoration. And I think when you look at examples around the world, and here in Canada, of where we've actually, you know, done a good job of restoring streams and river ecosystems, those examples are ones where partnerships between scientists and local indigenous communities are maximized. So I guess if you just look at the evidence that there's a scientific But it's showing that if you start from the beginning, you know, if you really maximize and benefit, and really partner and center partnerships in the science, it's more impactful. So there's that one element. And then for me, it just is it's normal. It's a, just a value that I really hold dear in and prioritize through all of the funding and the partnerships that I bring. So it wasn't like we're out to do something different. I think it's just from all waves of dimensions of looking at the problem and wanting to restore freshwater for future generations. Partnering just makes an obvious first step and important step before we do the science.

Stuart Carlton 10:39
But you so you're talking about partner, but actually, y'all y'all seem to go a few steps farther and within your lab group. And I recommend everybody go to We'll link to it in the show notes. You should go to Katherine's webpage and look at the really diverse and large lab group that she oversees. In fact, what I'd love to do that successfully,

Dr. Catherine Febria 10:54
how do we actually do it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, I'm happy to talk about that. I think I spent the first year really, just really listening, spending a lot of time meeting with the farming community meeting with our indigenous community partnering with people, you know, that I was immediately welcomed by, like knowledge holders and elders in the community. The person who directs are the indigenous Alisha programmer named Katie Donaldson, She guided me and helped just situate me to the the social landscape and the relationship building that I was hoping would happen. And I knew, I think when I started that I just wanted to make a commitment as a scientist to start with the relationships first and understand that context before coming in and proposing the best possible hypothesis. I think, if we didn't, if I didn't do that job, right, then like, our science would be less impactful and fail. And so I checked the time, we were a small team, then it was me and candy. And Jess, a year ago, we took the time to just listen and meet farmers and just, you know, meet with, go to Walpole, and listen and really try our best job to understand, you know, in what way could a group you know, a science team that looks at headwater systems, you know, wanting to connect land, water, and you know, from an ecological lens, in what way are those skills useful. And so that comes from, you know, just a lot of mentorship and thinking about what what makes truly impactful science. And one of the ways that I could do that was to actually fund positions for indigenous scientists to be in our team, to fund farmers to be part of our team. And just really think about the social infrastructure that needed to be in place so that I, as a scientist can play that role. But it was in step and aligned with what, what the local communities were meeting in terms of the science and community. And yeah, so I think in that process, we realized it was important to have a communicator. So we have a lab storyteller, we have, you know, we've pursued strategic grants that allowed us to align research grants from my lab with, you know, a grant, that was that's led by our indigenous scholar, Clint Jacobs, that allowed us to hire cat, you know, that created positions, you know, really just aligning opportunities so that we could all work together. So it was really strategic. And it seems like it's come together, like, I know, it's been a year, but I think that we did spend a lot of time trying to get that that infrastructure, right, and the intention, right, and be very clear about what you know, what we value and how we roll. And that led to these opportunities. Katrina, what's your

Carolyn Foley 13:35
background and like your training and expertise.

Katrina Keeshig 13:39
So I'm, I'm additional bay from Nishan in Maine, which is up on the Bruce peninsula, and I had been working with Parks Canada for almost 10 years doing ecological monitoring, and some fisheries work. And I saw this job ad for a field guide, working with Walpole Island, First Nation and the healthy headwaters lab. And Whirlpool is just this amazing environment completely made up of wetlands and islands. So I really wanted to a change of scenery. And so I took the job interview almost exactly a year ago, and met Katherine and Kandi. And it was just, it was obvious from the very beginning that it was just a different way of recruiting and a different value system. And yeah, so I joined the team in January. And my main role was to be working on one of our grants. It's a Canada nature fund for aquatic species at risk in partnership with whirlpool. And since then, it's kind of bloomed into this position with many hats and many roles. But our closest partner that we work with is Walpole Island. And my role is to try and identify ways that we can work together and really listen to their concerns and their priorities as a community for doing environmental research and building capacity within their own community to to address those issues. So I was really fortunate that both cat and Candy had developed this relationship that I was able to join in on. And yeah, they really invested the time and the energy to become not only partners and allies, but friends with a lot of people at Whirlpool. And I think we've really benefited from that. So. So for

Carolyn Foley 15:50
so sorry for the benefit of Stuart and our listeners. Can you please who's

Stuart Carlton 15:54
going to be? Yes.

Carolyn Foley 15:56
You're welcome. So can you please situate, like tell people so the Bruce Peninsula, it's? Yeah, everyone who's listening to this should go and look at pictures of the Bruce Peninsula. It's one of the most magical places on earth. But so can you sit? Let people know where Walpole Island is, please.

Katrina Keeshig 16:16
So what will Island is at the northern tip of the St. Clair River just along the Detroit River, about two hours north east of Windsor.

Stuart Carlton 16:32
And so while you're so you're doing a lot of work with the communities there? Is this a is it a? Is it an indigenous area or who lives there? Why are we I mean, why do we care about

Dr. Catherine Febria 16:43
we care? Yeah, I mean, the if you look at a map, what I love when I hear people like Dean Jacobs and Clint Jacobs talk about Walpole Island, they say it's in the heart of the Great Lakes. So it's like, it literally is like heart, you know, that heart shaped spot in the Great Lakes. And there's a big, there's a delta, that's Walpole island. So it's, there's also a ferry that goes to Michigan from that area. And, and it is the traditional, it covers the traditional territory where the university is situated on so we have, you know, Dr. Dean Jacobs, who heads the Heritage Center there and works with Clint, who we, who's our indigenous scholar, you know, they had a relationship with the university to begin with. And that's when I talk about, you know, when I landed here, back in Windsor, after years, abroad, you know, it was Kandi, who has been leading an effort around called in to indigenized, the science curriculum, and had been, and she sits on Senate for the Aboriginal education Council at the university. So there were these are relationships that the university was trying to make, and how to establish and, you know, I was welcomed into that network. And, and then really, it went, it was a process of like, continuing to think about and create opportunities together. So it was a real strategic partnership between, you know, you know, Kenny bringing us in connecting us with Clint. And, you know, one of the immediate things we wanted to do is offer a course that was at Walpole, you know, get students outside of the university and learn from the land. And so there was a traditional ecological knowledge field course, you can find that on our lab website, it's on YouTube, one of the students produced a video about it, a short video about that experience. And it was our way to really kind of bring the experience of learning from about traditional ecological knowledge from those traditional ecological knowledge holders. And then we also had, you know, faculty come and teach us how to learn how to use a drone, or do bio monitoring, but it was very placed based, and it was eco. And you know, every time we did a western science thing, we'd have an elder that came and talked to us. So I think, you know, you know, we are so lucky, first of all, to have even recruited someone like Katrina, cuz she's obviously a badass, she does things. And the reason why she can wear so many hats is because she's just so talented. And I think we were really pinching ourselves that, you know, if we were, you know, we had this hope that if we could have an authentic partnership have really clear values, like really be clear about the science that we were wanting to do and the partnerships we were on to build that we could attract, you know, some amazing leaders. And, you know, so cucina is just one of those examples and in that same thing, you know, if we could pursue grants where someone from what so none of us are actually from Walpole Island is I think, is amazing that this relationship, you know, you don't have to be from that community or indigenous to like, do this well or do this right, but be open to learning and building that and investing and building those relationships. So in our team, some of them are some of our team are from Walpole and like sit in the Heritage Center or work from home virtually at Walpole and some come to the university. And that's that's been very much you know, our way of trying to build build a bridge between between our team and the community.

Stuart Carlton 20:00
What you're describing Catherine, and you may not phrase it this way. But you're you're this is like a radical reimagining of how to do ecological science, isn't it? I mean, this is you have a storyteller. And I think that's really frankly, inspiring. And we're so if somebody is inspired by this as you should be, and what are their some, like, you know, baby steps that people might take to try to integrate better or be a better ally, to indigenous peoples in their area, or incorporated into their science, if they're a scientist or whatever, do you have some sort of baby steps that folks might,

Carolyn Foley 20:36
if I can tag something on to sorry, I'm reading your name, you can edit that out. So we have a joke that we call Stewart people will say like hi, Carlton, or Hi, Carlson or things like that. And I'm looking at like, Oh, hey, Carlton, so yeah, so happy us thanksgiving. Sorry, good. All right. So. So if I could just piggyback on Stuart's question, just, it sounds like you have a lot of support at the University of Windsor to pursue these types of partnerships and friendships. So when you're talking about the baby steps, if you could give them for people who even if they don't have that level of support? Are there any kind of

Dr. Catherine Febria 21:20
baby steps? You could? You know, we have that conversation all the time, because we even we didn't know what to call what we were doing, you know, is this ally ship? What is Ally ship? So I think, you know, on our lab website, we actually have a page called the indigenous Alisha program. And there are some resources that we've accessed. And we are continually sharing resources amongst us to just kind of again, revisit, what is it that we're doing? What is our intention? So that's the first step. There's lots of resources out there, we put a few on our website. And so that's one way as an individual that we can start to grow and learn. We also talk about, you know, having people as a first start, there's lots of resources out there, including understanding whose land are you on so there are websites, I think native land is one of them that we direct people to to figure out, if you just want to know what treaties, you know, are, you know, that apply to the places that you're there's lots of little things like that, that we as individuals can do. And then I think as I've continued to, you know, navigate the science space, I've had an incredible mentors that have showed me what an ally ship looks like in action. And so some of it is, you know, the ally ship program, I basically got support from the Faculty of Science in the university, when I proposed to them, like I know, they get things like overheads and fees. I also know that the university signs on to these, you know, dimensions charter for equity, diversity, inclusion, and have these commitments, and I basically asked them to, you know, that I had this vision and redirect those fees towards this program, that can allow us to hire and recruit and retain individuals. So in a way, like they're, they basically put their money where their mouth is, I basically asked them, you know, what kind of commitments are you making it towards reconciliation of our indigenous community here in Canada, and here's an idea in science, what we could do is create a program that actually centers that, and, you know, allows us to make and foster the space for, for our indigenous partners and scientists to lead. And so that's kind of one example that me as a pi that I've decided to do. And, you know, and that also equal equally, that applies to working with local farming communities, I'm doing research on their land, that they are, you know, the settler communities are farming. And, you know, there's lots of drains that are managed by various superintendents and things like that. And so I decided, again, to reinvest things like overheads and fees towards hiring a farmer. So I think it's not just about working with only one community. And that's what we do, I think we're just very serious about our mission, which is to advance science that will connect land, water and people that will, you know, ensure fresh water and farming sustainability for future generations. And I know that science is one dimension of, you know, advancing that and achieving that. But, you know, especially in other research teams, or mentors and other examples that I have been really either just impressed by or inspired by, you know, seeing real commitments to other types of knowledge being there. It's not just numbers, but stories are a major form of data, and knowledge. And that's transferred across generations. So that obviously means we needed a specialist in storytelling, which is why we have a lab storyteller. And yeah, so that those are example. Hopefully that answers your question.

Katrina Keeshig 24:29
I was really apprehensive about the title, indigenous ally ship program when I joined because it's, you know, that carries a lot of weight to it. And it's contentious depending on who you're speaking to. And so I really was conscious of whether we were doing things that lived up to that. And I think the biggest commitment that I've seen over my time at the lab is is time, like time and trust, I think are the most foundation No building blocks that and I think you lose that a lot with research partnerships, because there's strict timelines, and there's outputs that are, you know, required and, and sometimes communities First Nation communities are notified. Right before and, and then you go in, you do the work and you create a report. And that's, you know, that's extractive, and it doesn't necessarily leave the community with any benefits. And so I've noticed just how much time we've set aside to, you know, eat together, we have lunches when possible. Before COVID, we had an open house and the labs went to the community a number of times to join in different events. And I think those have really led to the the relationship that's been formed. And it has resulted in us having more and more opportunities to partner together on grants that benefit both the lab and the community. And as Kathryn said, you create positions and redirect these, these funds. So that that's ally ship, it's using your your position and your influence to, to, you know, influence change and influence positive change and overcome these barriers. So I've definitely seen really good examples of that

Carolyn Foley 26:29
is the funding, do you guys mostly get funding through Canadian sources like through end circ and things like that? Because I know, I guess I'm I don't know if anyone from NSF listens to our humble podcast, but I think there are a lot of different funding organizations that are talking about ways that they can do things that I think there's some really creative ways that you

Dr. Catherine Febria 26:51
have lots of fun it Yeah, I guess you know, that large a lot of our programmatic funding comes from the, you know, the tri Council funding. But, you know, our nature fund is like a federal science program. So it's administered through the Federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans and a specific call around species at risk. We've received number numerous small teaching grants and undergraduate grants that create the position of the lab storyteller. And that created the resources for our traditional ecological knowledge course. So it's, we have a diversity of funding schemes and sources that we draw from. And I also, you know, I still continue to have, you know, research connections in our town in New Zealand. And there's a whole science agency called the the biological heritage National Science Challenge, and they have really done a lot of work around, you know, refunding and redirecting science spend. So it's impactful, you can still do blue sky science, but you can still build relationships, if someone's going to be doing research on a species at risk, why not work with the local community to bring the wood that's of interest, or the fungus that you're trying to do research on? So I've just sort of seen how if you reorganize, you know, funding, you know, have these just different sources? It's possible, it's just a matter of, you know, I think there are examples out there, and I'm happy to point people towards those examples. It's not just us. Yeah.

Stuart Carlton 28:09
So one thing, it was interesting, Katrina, when you were talking, you talked about ally ship as like a potentially controversial term, but you meant that you it was overstating what you're doing that, you know, you ally ship is a really high bar. But I was thinking it's probably controversial on the other end, as well, right, Catherine, like you have to get some blowback from hardcore scientists, you know, about the work that you're doing, do you find that people tend to push back against it and say, you know, either against te or traditional ecological knowledge or against, you know, the fact that this, I don't know, it approaches, some definition of advocacy that people might not be comfortable with? Do you hear anything along those lines? Or is everybody as inspired and fired up as I am?

Dr. Catherine Febria 28:48
Well, don't say it to my face. And if they did, I don't really care, because I think the evidence is really clear when it comes to restoration that ecological science has to be informed by social dimensions as well. So I think for people who are really serious about sustainability, there's always a social dimension. And I'm constantly reminded, so I love my circle is not just a science circle. Thankfully, I have colleagues who are social scientists and economists or practitioners on the ground, and that those are, you know, that diversity, like those are the people who, you know, in the communities that who are actually stewards of the land, who are, you know, they think that I think the evidence is there, it's going to take generations for the kinds of restoration that this planet needs. And if we don't partner with our local, you know, stewards of the land and water, I mean, that's the timescale we need to work at. And so that's kind of the impact that I'm thinking about, and not necessarily the peer reviewed science. I think, again, the evidence also shows that that's kind of biased, and there are paywalls and barriers to accessing that science. And there's a huge need to actually translate that science into practice. I mean, that bridge and that connectivity, I think we talk a lot about in our group. You know, we don't advocate for anything we don't have evidence for, you know what not advocating for, you know, I think so I think the role that we play is really like that honest broker of science like here is we understand the role of partnerships and the role of incorporating social dimensions in the science that we do. But you know, we're not, you know, if you look at our at our comps, and what we do, and the torque stories we tell, it isn't advocating for things, it really is about telling those stories. If we are if we do have data and science to show, there's a whole there's a page for that. But I think, you know, for people that really take a minute to think about what we're doing and look at the evidence of the impact, it is more than just the peer reviewed paper, but actions on the ground community relationships, funding that's directed towards that kind of capacity building. So it's a really multi-dimensional I guess, portfolio of, of evidence that we think about, because we're really serious about holistic, and an actual change.

Katrina Keeshig 31:07
Yeah, I'm not sure if other labs are talking about the way we do things. But one of the things that impressed me the most, and that I've shared with people, since joining the team is just how people are accepted for, you know, arriving where they are, you know, using different routes and different ways of gaining knowledge. And not all of us are, you know, hard science based with Masters or PhDs. And that was, that worked for our lab that gave us a greater reach and a greater a variety of perspectives to look at things. And I think people look at that, and, and the ones that we spoke with, see that as a benefit, you know, and we're able to, to look at things with slightly different lenses. And there's a growing acceptance and move toward a two eyed seeing or incorporating both Western and Indigenous Knowledges and valuing them on an equal playing field not, you know, looking at indigenous hierarchy, knowledge as being something you know, that needs to be proven by Western science, but that it has a lot to add, to our, our way of knowing. And I think my favorite example, one of our first meetings with Clint Jacobs, who's the manager of the Walpole Island Heritage Center, we were speaking about an invasive plant Phragmites. And how it's, you know, it's a major concern to the community, it's really taken over a lot of important habitats. And everyone's dealing with it, you know, everyone along the Great Lakes is doing the same thing. Managing it using chemical and mechanical means. And Clint stopped and said that he wanted to, they wanted to have a naming ceremony, and they thought that was a good first step, and to give that plant a name, and to look at it and ask it, why it was there. And to approach it from, from, you know, that viewpoint like, what is that plant there to teach us? And I think by adding perspectives like that, then we can look at, you know, a problem that we've been trying to manage for years, with this completely new lens. And I think our science will be made better for it. So hopefully, people see and appreciate that. But

Dr. Catherine Febria 33:48
yeah, and as you can imagine, as an ecologist, that speaks to me, because that tells me everything about why is it there? Well, you know, so I start thinking about, well, what is the flow regime, what other species what species used to be there? What are interactions with, you know, the invertebrate or fish communities or bird communities, and so I've learned so much from that Anishnaabe a melon language about when you actually hear the name that tells you a lot about its ecology. So, you know, it is a very reciprocal relationship, and it informs a lot about you know, so doing, you know, this Phragmites project, we could have easily gone and just, like, burned and, you know, and, you know, cleared it all, but I think we're creating space for the community to help guide like, you know, what areas would we even, you know, Phragmites might occur as we continue to understand ecology, you know, there's certain places that used to be important habitats for the community or species at risk, you know, maybe we need to that's where we want to focus our energy, but again, it is creating the space to allow that knowledge to guide that, that project. And so it's a real privilege to be part of that and I you know, I learned a lot from it. And I think this is exactly the kind of way we need to be pursuing restoration. Conservation with people who know the land and you know, understand and want to be responsible for stewarding those landscapes. So I think that's a wonderful example, cucina. Thank you.

Stuart Carlton 35:12
Great. Well, this is very fascinating and inspiring stuff. And I really enjoyed this conversation. But that's actually not why we invited you on teach me about Great Lakes this week. And the reason we actually invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes this week is to answer these two questions. And the first one says, If you could choose to have a great donut for breakfast, or a great sandwich for lunch, which would it be and no, this is the question that's gonna break our

Carolyn Foley 35:37
relationship. Students are all answers

Stuart Carlton 35:42
are acceptable. Yeah, but some are more acceptable. So don't screw it up. Yeah.

Katrina Keeshig 35:47
I am. 100% don't even need to question it. The sandwich person

Stuart Carlton 35:53
sandwich. What's sandwich where if I'm in the Windsor, I guess, right. If I'm in Windsor, where should I go get a sandwich.

Katrina Keeshig 36:03
Um, I haven't explored Windsors food as much as I would have liked. Right. Yeah, most of the year has been and you can still do takeout but I struggle with that because of, you know, the styrofoam and everything. In Toronto, my favorite sandwich place was this grilled cheese place in Kensington Market. And you could get gourmet grilled cheese where they would oil the outside of the toe so that it was so crispy. And I usually like an apple or a pear in there. Maybe a pesto so I'm a sandwich person the whole way.

Stuart Carlton 36:44
Catherine Here we go. The moment of truth.

Dr. Catherine Febria 36:47
Donna all the way and you need to go. And I have the best the best donut place in Windsor. It's called plant joy. It's a vegan. It's a vegan donut bakery. You know, in the pandemic, they've still managed to keep open. You can preorder your doughnuts, they are incredible. My youngest daughter really likes just the cinnamon sugar one. I think she's just like a, you know, purist and like, just like that. And I don't know, I think I like that the glaze is great. The maple one is great. If you can have one of each. Also great with a cup of coffee. I'll be honest. And like, I sell Yeah, I'm easily you know, there's nothing like a weekend donut coffee, if you can have, you know, just with your favorite people on a really nice day. Like, just that would be great. I'll have a sandwich

Stuart Carlton 37:50
I think about having two guesses. You know, the question is designed to be mutually exclusive. But different answers mean, we're just going on a culinary tour of the second is this. So we'd like to ask what is one piece of life advice that you have for our listeners, it can be like big or little serious or silly, you know, just something they can take home with them. This has already been a very inspirational interview in my opinion, but But you know, let's let's just put the button on the button, the cap on the doughnut or whatever.

Carolyn Foley 38:19
The butter on the outside of the grilled cheese, the butter,

Stuart Carlton 38:22
the butter on the outside of the grilled cheese,

Katrina Keeshig 38:23
I'll just go back to grilled cheese quickly because a friend just taught me the greatest thing I've heard in a long time. But you melt a little bit of cheese on the outside of the grilled cheese. Ah,

Stuart Carlton 38:38
not gonna lie. That's a technique I employ. Or while we're this life advice might be up and here's this is a thin layer of dijon mustard on the inside, not too much. All of that.

Katrina Keeshig 38:54
My life advice. I'll just go with the whole reason that I'm on the show is Catherine asked me if I would join. And I was like, Oh God, no. That is not my thing. And then I said, Well, I told myself I would say yes to things that scare me this year. So this this year was a yes year and it's led to me doing things that I don't think I would have agreed to in the past and they've all turned out fine. So

Carolyn Foley 39:24
it's very much arcane that you said yes to this. Hopefully not in the end that scary thing.

Katrina Keeshig 39:31
And it never ends up being as scary as you make it out to be so I feel like that is the advice I'm going with this year.

Dr. Catherine Febria 39:38
I don't know that I can talk either. You know any of those stories. I think the life advice I guess it's just like find find your thing. There's so many things we could be doing. I mean, I've been lecturing to undergraduate students who are living through the pandemic and have lots of little people around me that are you know, this is their normal they don't know that. there was ever a life that, you know, this didn't exist. And, and, you know, they look to me and think like, what can we do and I think the best thing we can do is just like find your purpose and find your thing. And that will attract the people that you want to work with and align with, like the work that we've done. It's it, we it feels like we've accomplished a lot, but it's gone by really fast that's come together so well. And I think we've just been really clear about how we roll and what we and we've made room and space for all of the ways that you can live a good life. So I'm hoping that like, we can all reconnect, and it's not by, you know, falling or, you know, we can disagree on the donut versus sandwich question. But I think, you know, in general, if people do their thing, find what it is that they love, we all need all of our best selves to deal with whatever comes. And, and I'm just really happy when I see the people that I work with and care about do amazing things. And it's been a pleasure to work with them.

Stuart Carlton 40:56
Well, I can't find better advice on that. Dr. Catherine February and Katrina, qisheng, both of the healthy headwaters labs at the University of Windsor, thank you so much for coming on and teaching us all about the Great Lakes.

Katrina Keeshig 41:07
me glad, Thank you, Jimmy.

Stuart Carlton 41:25
Well, that was really inspirational and a whole lot to think about I, I am amazed by everything that they're doing in their lab to try to integrate indigenous peoples and really gives you a good idea of what ally ship is in this context.

Carolyn Foley 41:39
Yeah, it was really fantastic. Katrina said, you know that the time and trust issue, you know, that that's what it takes, I found that really, really interesting. You know, being at a land grant university at Purdue, you're also you know, we're also supposed to be trying to bring research and education together in a way that will actually help people and bring in perspectives of the people who are on the ground. But we are also bound by the timelines of the two year grant, and then you're out, right? So I think it would be really awesome if funding institutions such as mine, our own and other organizations to sort of start to get behind this idea that it's gonna take a while to do it, right. And it's important for us to do it, right. So that's something that I found really, really cool.

Stuart Carlton 42:27
That is really, really cool, something I was interested in, and we didn't, I didn't quite have time to get into it. But Katherine talked about how she uses like all of her overhead and fees and things like that, to hire a lot of people to be a more active ally. And for those who aren't in academia, what that means is she's basically spending her own budget money that she could use on other things to complete research or whatever. And using that instead to I mean, and she's very passionate clearly about how it helps her research. But I thought that was really notable because that's a significant sacrifice potentially to make. While sacrifice might not be the right term, and that's a significant use of resources, I guess would be the way to put it.

Carolyn Foley 43:01
Right. Yeah. I think if not sacrifice, I think it's different way of using resources. But you know, to benefit the work that you're doing so

Stuart Carlton 43:09
yeah, no, I agree and to do what's right, and so I thought there was a lot to think about certainly.

Carolyn Foley 43:15
Yeah. And I'm also extraordinarily proud of the place I graduated from go University of Windsor. I'm not always like a like, yeah, I really enjoyed my time there. But I'm super proud that they are support

Stuart Carlton 43:26
Yeah, no kidding. Hey, what's your mascot? We can say go? What are they the bears are probably the bears go Bears?

Carolyn Foley 43:32
They're the Lancers.

Stuart Carlton 43:33
So wait, what's a Lancer?

Carolyn Foley 43:34
It's a person on top of a horse with a lamp. Oh. Oh, like to be fair, I was there a while ago. But yeah, well, we'll link to I

Stuart Carlton 43:44
will link down the Lancer. We'll go Lancers, and yeah, anyway, I thought that was that was good. That was really inspiring. I'm thrilled to have them on. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people go to find out more about Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant and the work that we do.

Carolyn Foley 44:01
They can go to AI Sea Grant SCA gra n t.org. Or they can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, Youtube. Looking for i Sea Grant or Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant?

Stuart Carlton 44:17
Maybe less Instagram. Do we have Instagram? We have an Instagram?

Carolyn Foley 44:20
I believe so. It's almost the holidays in 2020.

Stuart Carlton 44:28
We might have an Instagram I don't know. Um, anyway. Great. Well follow us in all those places. And you can find out a lot about the work we do. And until then everybody stay safe. It's a holiday season. Our next episode will be our first anniversary extravaganza. It might be a couple of weeks.

Carolyn Foley 44:47
We've been doing this for a year. Oh.

Stuart Carlton 44:51
I'm so shocked if you haven't been planning the extravaganza behind the scenes for two weeks now.

Carolyn Foley 44:57
That was very, very, very credible. And we

Stuart Carlton 45:00
So, anyway, and I was totally I played along very well I wasn't confused and confounded by it, but I it may be a couple of weeks we're having some issues getting certain things together. So it may be a few weeks before you hear us with the holidays and everything like that, but the next episode, first anniversary extravaganza, thank you so much for listening. This has been a lot of fun, and we'll see you in a few weeks and until then, keep greatin' those lakes!