Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript, we apologize for any errors. If you notice any problems, please email the show at teachmeaboutthegreatlakes@gmail.com. Thank you.

Carolyn Foley 0:00
Hello, we have a random popper.

Stuart Carlton 0:02
Teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes John, welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice ask people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I work with Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant. And I'm so happy to be here. We're joined today by our Canada correspondent, Carolyn Foley Carolyn, how's it going?

Carolyn Foley 0:27
Carolyn is doing well. It's possible that she will lose her status as Canada correspondent because she hasn't lived in Canada for a very long time. But that's okay.

Stuart Carlton 0:35
Well, that's fine. Then I'm joined today by our plover correspondent Carolyn Foley. Carolyn, what

Carolyn Foley 0:39
is not much Stuart, how you doing?

Stuart Carlton 0:42
I'm doing great. Thanks. We are here to talk clovers again. Because you can never talk enough plover, so that's good. But before we do, we got a little bit of business to take care of. So let's take care of some business. The first item of business is this it's time to go nominate someone for the Lakers. Right? You remember the Lakers are possibly not the least prestigious, Great Lakes based podcast award ceremony that there is. And that's gonna be an award show we do at the end of the year, but we need your nominations. And so we're just reminding you to go to bitly.com/leaky is 21 basically.com/leaky 21. Or look in your show notes for the lake and nominate some stuff in the lake ease in such categories as Great Lakes Science of the year. Great Lakes Science Communication with the year sandwich of the year, Donut into the year, Great Lakes news story of the year, all kinds of fun awards that you can nominate for so do that. And Carolyn, you're actually going to feature a nominee for Great Lakes Outreach Program of the Year if I recall.

Carolyn Foley 1:40
Sure. Yep. So because today's guest is from the University of Minnesota, we are going to be featuring one of the nominees that is also based out of the University of Minnesota. It's the secret Great Lakes aquaculture, correct collaboratives, sometimes called black. And so it's it's based. It's headed by the group from Minnesota Sea Grant, but it has secret Extension educators, science communicators, fishery biologists, economists and aquaculture specialists from all of the Great Lakes states, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York. And they are trying to support an environmentally responsible science based competitive and sustainable aquaculture industry in the Great Lakes region. So sometimes people ask, like, why is our great like sea grant programs involved in this and it's, you know, it's aquaculture is a way to have production of food locally and things like that there's a huge deficit with the amount of aquaculture that is imported from aquaculture grown fish or plants, or invertebrates like shrimp or things like that, that are grown in other countries, and then brought here to be consumed. So it's good to explore the possibility because partially because aquaculture in the Great Lakes is very, very different than aquaculture along the coasts, right. So it's nice to have this collaborative that is working together to try to figure out what works in the Great Lakes. So they have a bunch of different outreach available. Some information if you know, people want to start a particular business, there's marketing information, how to set things up how to produce particular species, there's a whole bunch of good stuff. So yeah,

Stuart Carlton 3:27
no, it is really interesting and I am sort of point of information that I am sort of affiliated with a I've done work with them. With the aquaculture collaborative and yeah, aquaculture Great Lakes, it's usually in tanks, or in ponds, right? It's not like these huge net pens that are polluting out in the Gulf or the lakes or whatever. And so people are confused about that. And it's a really interesting group of people who are really committed to trying to make a sustainable local seafood industry. I think so. Yeah. It is fascinating news. Good but when to Leakey, tune in in probably December to find out January, who knows tune in to find out as soon as we tell you that it's coming. Great. Well, I'm excited about today's interview. We're going to talk a little bit more clovers are not clovers will talk clovers with Dr. Francie cuts for who is a plover biologist among other things, and the reason that I point out that she's a plover biologist is so that I can introduce her with this.

Researcher researcher teaches about the great lakes. We're joined today by Dr. Francie Cuthbert. She is a distinguished teaching professor at the Department of Fisheries wildlife and conservation biology at the University of Minnesota. Francie, how are you today? Good, very good. And friends who are lying right now for a ferry in Canada. Is that right?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 4:59
That's right. How about you?

Stuart Carlton 5:01
Oh, we're wonderful. I'm always glad to talk piping clovers. I didn't know that I was until the first time I spoke piping plover is actually just a couple hours ago. But now I know I'm always excited. Because these are cool birds. So you've been working on pullovers for a while, is that correct? Right. Yeah, my whole career. No kidding. And so what attracted you to the clovers? Exactly? Is it just they were there? Or is it important issues or something about them?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 5:23
Well, actually, for my PhD research, I studied Caspian tern behavior, ecology, on islands in northern Lake Michigan. And on one of the islands where I worked, there was a pair of of piping clovers that I used to see almost every day. And I knew they were rare, I started to read up a little bit and found out that really, as far as a Great Lakes population, almost nothing was known. And so I just kind of carried this side interest. And then some opportunities came up, and I started working more intensively with with flowers.

Carolyn Foley 6:07
So the the clovers sort of stole you away from the turns. Yes,

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 6:11
yes. They did.

Stuart Carlton 6:13
Have a really was an unexpected turn. Yes. Okay, thank you. Good night, when you first started, that was kind of probably close to the peak of their endangerment or when they were really starting to become endangered. Right. What? What did you learn about clovers kind of earlier career that in terms of why they're endangered, or what some of the stresses were for the populations?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 6:34
Well, you know, it took a while to sort things out, because you're right, I, I started my interest before they were listed as an endangered population. But early on, you know, I knew that they were rare, the numbers were low, and that they weren't changing. And that at that time, there was no management or conservation effort, really in place. What we know now is that they probably were greatly affected by a public recreation. Most of the sites where they nest are state parks, national parks, township, parks, all all these are beaches, city parks, and with it probably began, oh, in the around World War Two, actually, the end of World War Two, but in the 50s, and 60s is when the numbers appeared to have really dropped, it is important to know that they were never what you would call common or abundant in the Great Lakes, they've always been the numbers have always been, what biologists would say are small, were small.

Carolyn Foley 7:50
Is that largely because just their preferred habitat is not that common? Or is it that everywhere that they exist, they exist in relatively low numbers,

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 8:03
actually, the that there are two other populations, one on the East Coast that has around 2000 pairs, and one in the Great Plains and per Canada, that that population is at about 2000 Plus pairs. And then the Great Lakes, it's not known for sure. But the estimate out there is maybe as many as 800 pairs, but I think it's really was smaller than that. And so the Great Lakes has tremendous shoreline. But the plovers are very particular about the habitat that they use, and that is not abundant. And so I would say they're limited by available habitat. And also they're sitting in between the two populations, and I think have served as a link historically. So that may also be a reason that the numbers are smaller.

Carolyn Foley 9:09
That's cool. Has anyone ever done any kind of like genetic work to see if the populations are actually connected? Or observations of them? Like tagging them or anything like that?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 9:19
Yes. So there's several studies that have gone on an earlier study looked at whether or not the three populations were genetically the same. And this was an older study. So the methods that we use now, of course, were not available. But that study documented that the Atlantic coast and the great plains were distinctive, distinct, give to the point of being able to justify that they were subspecies. The Great Lakes, birds are much more closely related to the Great Plains. So Genetically, but they are not distinct. They're not distinct as a sub species.

Stuart Carlton 10:08
So how did you how did you use to do that research? I'm curious about that. So so my senior thesis now 20 years ago, Oh God, I'm getting older. I looked at two populations of fish, the silver jaw minnow, we're trying to figure out if they were different subspecies, and so I was counting fish scales every night, you know, most kids are out partying, I'm counting fish scales, what do you call whatever, like the older techniques to determine bird species? Was it, you know, looking kind of body morphometrics? Or what what kind of stuff that you'll do?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 10:33
The this study, and I was not, I was not a co author on this study, this initial one, it was done with, I think, blood samples, but also eggs. And so these would have been unhatched eggs or, you know, eggs that were not viable. Let's put it that way. But I should interject that right now. I'm just starting a genetic study with a colleague at the University of Minnesota, she already and she works on population genetics. And so we're in the process of collecting a whole new set of samples to be able to look at in a more sophisticated way, the relationship among birds in these three populations, as well as answer some other questions. So that, you know, that's important to know. And we're just starting, so I don't have any answers. But we're using blood fecal samples and also collecting DNA from the cheeks of birds, as we're banning them

Carolyn Foley 11:42
from the cheek. So is that like, similar to when people are doing like a DNA test for their human that you like?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 11:48
Yeah, exactly. It's in a we use the swabs that are, you know, that are the same, except they're tiny, that are being used to test for for COVID.

Stuart Carlton 12:00
These adorable little COVID swabs? Oh, geez. Yeah. So So then we're in the screw situation, right? Where we have the Great Plains, or the Great Lakes population is distinct from from the other one, and so it's in danger. So my understanding from talking with Julian Farkas in our last bit, was that the Great Lakes population is endangered and the other populations are not. And during the summer, that makes sense. But over winter, they all commingle that's, is that is that right?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 12:27
That's correct. And they end during the winter, all three populations are classified as threatened.

Stuart Carlton 12:35
Okay, so it's a roving classification scheme, depending on where,

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 12:39
right, and you mentioned, I don't want to, you know, send you off in a side direction. But you mentioned whether or not we, the birds were tagged, or, you know, what we knew about individuals and their behavior. And that's one of the unique things about the Great Lakes population, is that we have been banding individuals since about 1993. And we have a tremendous a database on essentially, all the birds, we've banned all the chicks, and all of the adults, and we don't miss many, so more than 90% of adults at the end of the season, are individually marked and the chicks, we rarely Miss Miss chicks. So that gives us a lot of information. And so that's how we know where they go in the winter. And whether or not birds are showing up in the other populations. So that's another way we know that the Great Lakes is distinctive.

Carolyn Foley 13:45
That's crazy. So what do you I mean, how, how do you manage that? Like, do you have like a huge force of volunteers that are helping you out? Or how does that do you have students or how do you manage to be able to capture all of the chicks that are showing up?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 14:05
Okay, so you know, we have about this past year, we had about 74 pairs, nesting pairs, and they lay, you know, typically about they lay four eggs. And not everybody is successful, so they're failures and so on. And so I have a banding team that operates out of the University of Michigan Biological Station, and they go to most of the sites and they ban young and before the younger, available for banding, that's when they capture adults that are incubating. So far, we're able to keep up with all of us. At some point, hopefully the numbers will get high enough that you know, we'll have to have a different strategy. We don't band in Canada, there's a colleagues who do that We don't bend in New York, we have colleagues who do who do that. And same with Pennsylvania, but, and we have a colleague who helps in Wisconsin, but otherwise we've got done Illinois, Michigan, of course, Wisconsin, Green Bay Area. And Ohio this year. It's a big job.

Stuart Carlton 15:20
And so my understanding is, is that we're at about 75 breeding pairs right now with the Great Lakes. Is that kind of the best estimate? Our estimate was 74. This year. And so what is what is success then? So So you've been working in plover restoration for quite some time? And the numbers are moving up, if not always in a steady line? What what is there a target number? How do you first of all, is there one? And then how do you decide what that might be?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 15:43
The the recovery goal is 150 pairs. And that's 150 pairs in the US? Because of course we have a different policy than Canada does. And that's 100 pairs in Michigan and 50 in the other states. Now, it's not specified how many per state this has to, you know, reach that number and remain there for five years, as well as a target reproductive success, number of chicks fledge prepare at 1.5. And that's to be consistent for five years before the population can be considered for delisting. So you said, Where does that number come from? Well, the recovery plan, there have been several one was done shortly after listing in the mid 1980s. And then another one in 2003. And the this was before, really, there was much information about the population, and many of the sophisticated models that are available now. So it was it was a target goal. And it was not one that was based on any kind of a sophisticated analysis. I guess that's the best way

Stuart Carlton 17:06
to say it. But but they think it 150 pair, and then at one and a half chicks per for breeding pair that should lead to a stable or maybe even slightly growing population.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 17:17
Yes, that's, you know, that's, that's the goal. And of course, that's really the big challenge that we all worry about, because I think you know enough about clovers to know, that they are very intensively managed. And so the question is, can they ever reach that target goal and then be independent? Or will they be what's referred to as a conservation reliant species? So that even though you hit that target, they still are going to need some help, not not at the level that they're getting now, but something to maintain them, maintain the population.

Stuart Carlton 18:00
And so right, the worry is that without like, people out there, you know, like blocking off the nests on the beaches, and, you know, counting all of them and making sure that they're safe that they could they could just go right back to where they were, I guess.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 18:14
Yeah, yes. Or, you know, have greater ups and downs and, and have certain events that could could lead them to really drop in number.

Stuart Carlton 18:23
All right, a low year combined with some sort of disastrous event. It's not very reasonable, right? Yeah. So how do we get how do we get there? How do we get 250 breeding pairs, what needs to happen in order to get to that status,

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 18:36
ongoing management bit at all of the nest sites include an exclosure that goes over the nest, which is like a wire cage with openings big enough for the adults to go through and sit on the nest. But most mammalian ground, predators cannot get through there. Because the holes are smaller, and then covering on the top to keep out aerial predators. Crows goals, Merlin's a small Falcon, great horned owl, for example. And the other thing is we close off areas and that's done with what we call psychological fencing. It's not you know, it's it's literally posts, typically metal posts with signs that say, Do not enter please don't you know, go in to this nesting site. And then there's twine of its around the these posts. And so this is where we estimate the size of the territory is and will be, but that can be moved if they happen to move their chicks and we need to make a bigger area. But that's good for the eggs. The exposure but as soon as they hatch within can be just a few hours, the adults lead the chicks out of that fenced in the exposure. And then they're in the big outside world, which can be very unpredictable and sometimes quite cruel,

Stuart Carlton 20:15
so to speak. Yes, yes, it can. So that's,

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 20:18
you know, that's the basic thing that we do. But we also have monitors associated with all the nesting sites. And in most cases, these monitors are checking every single day. And some are literally just like staying right there at the nest site. And they're, you know, watching to make sure that they're not bothered, you know, disturbed by humans and people with dogs off leash, that there are not issues going on that they can they can help correct or prevent. And two of our urban big urban sites in the US outside of Toledo, at Maumee Bay and in at Montrose beach in Chicago, they have, you know, citizen scientists and citizen volunteers, that are very vigilant and better there, you know, basically, dawn to dusk. And this has made, you know, I think that's, I don't think I know, that's why those nests have been successful, because they, they are watching all the time for threats. These are and of course, there are a lot of other types of management. We've done some habitat restoration, that that's attracted birds. We have some of the public beaches, there are law enforcement, that that are involved that can help with different issues. You know, all these are really important factors. And another one that's building more and more is increasing public support. The public is learning about piping, pullovers, and you are helping that, you know, to happen with this podcast. But it really came in a big way with the two with the Chicago Nast yes

Stuart Carlton 22:17
with Monty and Rose. So I just realized why they're named that if they're at the Montrose Beach, right.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 22:23
Yeah. Yeah. And, and then, and then Ohio, there were a tremendous number of stories that have come out, you know, on the radio and in the news, newspapers, and just articles that people have written in, in magazines. And, and so all of this gets the public involved and interested.

Carolyn Foley 22:47
I wanted to ask a slightly different question, because you're talking about the public and the really the public helping with conservation and stuff like that. But I see that you have also worked on biology and management of double crested cormorants. And so I wanted to ask a little bit about that because in, you know, when I grew up near Lake Erie, and there was a lot of, you know, the the cormorants are the population numbers are too high, the population numbers are too low. They're eating and there's been a lot of concern about them, you know, eating Round Goby. So I come from an invertebrate background, but more invertebrates feeding fish. And so I've thought a lot about round gobies and contaminants and if they're what's available, and then the cormorants eat them, then there can be problems. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, like, can we contrast a little bit the public support for the piping clovers, which I learned about, you know, versus the way the public has engaged with what happens with cormorants at all? I know, that's a whole other thing, but maybe we could just talk about it briefly.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 23:55
Actually, it may be a whole different thing, but it's a very interesting comparison to look at the two and how the public has responded. How agencies have responded. You know, it's, it's a huge challenge. you've outlined what the issue is, it's it's basically overconsumption of fish, that, that that's what they are perceived to do. So that they're competing, competing with anglers. The other is destruction of vegetation. People don't like to see the fact that you know, they kill trees and, and, and islands and so on can change from being a treed Island to one that's that's barren. The pressure that was put on government agencies was overwhelming. There were many biologists across the Great Lakes region, who that's all they did was deal with Cormoran issues. Government agencies are in a position to make peace Look happy and try and figure out how to do that. And how to manage a resource. Well, the cormorant, you know, was it was a challenge. And plumbers are also a challenge but in a different way. And if you look at the two species, piping plovers are small, they're cute, they're not abundant. And the public has a general sense of too many, when there are too many of anything. It can be, you know, too many blackflies it can be too many cormorants. It can be too many allies. You know, once a certain level is reached, the public says no, too much. We don't, we don't want that. We don't want that number anymore. And that's when pressure gets put on the agencies. cormorants are not considered cute. I think they're fascinating, you know, biologically and just their, their whole morphology. But that doesn't come across to the public. And so this is, you know, another reason there's not been support for cormorants. Or many people have been supporting them. So

Stuart Carlton 26:18
that's interesting. One of the things so I remember reading a paper Oh, this was a while ago, because I was still in grad school is probably probably 1015 years. Five or 10 years ago at this point. I'm looking at media. So one of the things I do is I analyze media coverage of environmental controversies. And so there was a paper I wasn't a part of, and the title of the paper I still remember this was from victim to perpetrator. And it was talked about news coverage of cormorants and how over time, you know, cormorants was perceived as like, you know, victims at first, like in the 1970s or whatever, maybe early 80s. And then over time, the coverage of them slowly moved, and there was a lot more use of sort of that perpetrator framing or the risks from corporate or corporate framing. And so that's just the story you're telling there.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 27:00
Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's exactly right. And they were actually on endangered lists. in several places, they were on the Wisconsin endangered species list, if you can believe that. And, and they actually Wisconsin put up, like nesting towers, artificial nest sites to try and attract them. I can't tell you the exact year but I think that could have been could have been in the early 70s.

Stuart Carlton 27:32
Well, hopefully one day we'll be having this conversation about piping clovers, this. they're unlikely to be perpetrators, but maybe it will be so plentiful that people are not worried about them anymore. Well, Dr. Francie Cuthbert, this is really interesting. But this is actually not why we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes this week. The reason that we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes is to ask you two questions. And the first one is this. If you could choose to have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, which one would you choose?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 28:00
Oh, a great sandwich for lunch.

Stuart Carlton 28:02
So if so now you're at the University of Minnesota is that in Duluth? Where's the University of Minnesota?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 28:06
It's a no that's. Well, the University of Minnesota system has campuses a number of places. I'm on the Twin Cities campus. So that's Minneapolis St. Paul.

Stuart Carlton 28:17
Okay, perfect. Duluth is where Minnesota Sea Grant is based out of that's what it is. Okay, Minneapolis, good. Gonna be a broader selection there. So when I go to Minneapolis, and I want to get a really great sandwich for lunch, where should I go?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 28:27
Well, I would say, one place is to go to Browder's deli, which is at 50th and Penne. And they have they have a great choice of sandwiches. That's, that's my first choice.

Stuart Carlton 28:45
There go. I'm going and we'll put a link to that in our show notes, which you listener can find at teach me about the great lakes.com/ 44 zero because this is episode 40. And the second question is this. So we spent a lot of time talking to people about the Great Lakes and what a wonderful place they are. But, but what is special about the Great Lakes to you? Is there like a special place or a special memory about the Great Lakes that you'd like to share with our audience?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 29:10
Well, I can say that I have spent a very long time, you know, throughout my career and childhood and so on in the Great Lakes region. And I would say you know, the islands of Northern Lake Michigan are totally amazing. And but my favorite Island is High Island, which is where I first saw plovers, but it's uninhabited. It's got spectacular high dunes according to botanist it has some of the most original kind of pristine vegetation and and coastal shore ecosystem features of, of anywhere in the Great Lakes.

Stuart Carlton 29:59
Oh, Sounds wonderful. Well, Dr. Francie Cuthbert, a distinguished teaching professor at the Department of Fisheries, wildlife and conservation biology at the University of Minnesota, where can people go to find out more about your work or about the piping plover? Is there a website or social media Woodworks?

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 30:14
Yes, so we we have a blog site and we have a Facebook page that has, they're both full of lots of info information. The Facebook is like an update of what's going on. During the winter during the summer. The blog site has a lot of information on how we choose ban combos and how to recognize and report them. So more factual information. So the great the easiest way to find these is GLP IP L, either Facebook or blocked and I can send you those, I can send you those links.

Stuart Carlton 30:54
glpi pl, fantastic. And we will put that in our show notes so that you can go straight there. And with that, doctor friend, so you got it. Thank you so much for coming on and teaching us all about the Great Lakes.

Dr. Francie Cuthbert 31:10
Well, thanks. Thanks for your support for blubbers and sharing information with the public.

Stuart Carlton 31:34
It's always fun to talk clovers. Always fun to talk clovers.

Carolyn Foley 31:37
Yeah, I mean, I'm being perfectly honest. I'm not a birder. And I like clovers because they're cute. They're cute.

Stuart Carlton 31:45
Our last episode which was also plover, so you don't know this, because we just recorded a couple of minutes ago. And it was just me. But the title is cotton balls with toothpick legs. And that is basically with our especially when they're young.

Carolyn Foley 32:00
Right. And now I'm thinking like if you had a title about what a cormorant is, it would not be cotton balls.

Stuart Carlton 32:09
No, it would not be. There's actually a highly offensive name for them in the South. I won't I won't. I mean, it's like, it offends me and I'm pretty hard to offend. But, yes, yes. People are not fans of cormorants. But it's interesting because it did. I forgot about that paper that I read. I actually were probably not supposed to say this, but I might have reviewed it for publication. And so that's part of why it stuck in my mind. But that was a good paper, right? Yeah.

Carolyn Foley 32:31
And I mean, like I lived through that because when I started my career, it was like, oh, you know, cormorants are in trouble. We need to look after that. And then I would literally like we would drive a boat by middle of sister island that and it was just covered like all the trees were gone.

Stuart Carlton 32:48
So they what do they do to the trees? Is it they don't eat them? What is it a poop? They

Carolyn Foley 32:52
go to the bathroom? Yes. It was completely. And then you know, like, we'd be out in the middle. And there's like these islands in the middle of Western Lake Erie. And there's like a house and then they just have a random like gunshot like. And it's not an actual gunshot. It's just a loud noise to scare the cormorants away, but we're just sampling you know, like gathering whatever. And then all of a sudden, boom, you're like, oh my gosh, what's happening? So?

Stuart Carlton 33:15
Yeah, yeah, well, you're assuming it was an actual contract.

Carolyn Foley 33:19
That was too regular. But yeah, no, but uh, yeah. Anyway, this this is not an episode about Carolyn's weird adventures sampling like your you

Stuart Carlton 33:26
know, however, I'm writing this down. So you need to find your old sampling buddies, right, because there's no relationship like fieldwork relationship for better and worse, and one day we will have the episode about Carolyn's adventures. Sampling like curious.

Carolyn Foley 33:40
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Okay, sounds

Stuart Carlton 33:45
good. Well, maybe we'll get off the voice disguising technology then and have it just will invite random stranger.

Carolyn Foley 33:53
Yeah. special gifts biologist. Yep.

Stuart Carlton 33:57
Um, no, that was interesting. Corporate stuff was interesting. And I had not Yeah, I hadn't thought about this stuff in forever. Plus team sandwich girls by one more All in all, a successful interview. Plus, she was on a boat. We always like to interview people on a boat should have asked about the horn. I don't think it would have gone the same. No,

Carolyn Foley 34:14
no, probably not. Yeah. Great.

Stuart Carlton 34:17
Good. Well, in this highly organized fashion. Carolyn, would you like to read the credits while I play the music under the credits and find the link? Sure. Yeah. No, no. So behind the scenes here, it's this stays in Quint. It's your call. Francie was supposed to appear on last episode but but because she's traveling and in Canada, she was unreachable because I don't know if they don't have cell phones yet in Canada or whatever the deal is, I'll be quiet, but she couldn't make it. But then she texted me said hey, you know, sorry, but I'm free. Now. Do you want to talk pullovers and the answer is yes. I always want to talk clovers. So we're having this emergency episode a little bit less organized than usual. But that's okay. It's an impressive level of lack Good organization. And so as I fill the time, Carolyn is slowly opening up the thing. Are you ready? I got it. Good to go through it starting now.

Carolyn Foley 35:08
Teach me about the Great Lakes is brought to you by the fine people at Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant. We encourage you to check out the great work we do at ISEAG r a n t.org. And at i l i n Sea Grant on Facebook, Twitter and other social media. Teach me about the Great Lakes is produced by hoop charters, Carolyn Foley Megan gun and reading miles. He is our associate producer and fixer. Our super fun podcast artwork is by Joel Davenport. The show is edited by the awesome Queen Rose and I encourage you to check her out. Inspiring robot.com If you have a question or comments about the show, please email it to teach me about the great lakes@gmail.com or leave a message on our hotline at 765496 I G

Stuart Carlton 36:01
447444.

Carolyn Foley 36:04
You can also follow the show at Twitter at Teach Great Lakes. Thanks for listening and keep greatin' those lakes!