Stuart Carlton 0:00
Illinois. Teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes. Welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes. A twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice, ask people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton, and I work with Illinois, Indiana Sea Grant, and I know a lot about it being baseball season already again, and I'm coaching two teams somehow in the same time, when we have our omnibus proposal due, and also these other proposals, plus, is the beginning of the semester, and I've got other things to do also, but I don't know a lot about the Great Lakes, and that's the purpose of this year's show. Today I am on a roll. It's time to go solo, and so I'm doing that. Carolyn is out on assignment. Everybody's on assignment today. They're all on assignment. So it's just me. They've left me holding the bag, holding the keys, holding something, holding the secret to your future, maybe. But regardless, it's just me and not a lot of announcements up top. Couple of them that we want to make. One is, don't forget, we have a newsletter, and I remember to release issues of the newsletter periodically. Right now, the newsletter is hosted at substack, so you can go to teach me about the Great lakes.substack.com however, we're evaluating all sorts of places to potentially host that. So you could also just go to teach me about the Great lakes.com/newsletter and that'll give you the sign up link, and the link to it wherever it is, if we don't stay on substack. But so far, substack has been working pretty well, and one of my best buddies growing up there is a product designer over at substack. And so that's where we are. Anyway, you should sign up for that. We will also be at the live another live show. This is the year of live, teach me about the Great Lakes at the Great Lakes Sea Grant network meeting. If you're going to be at the Great Lakes, Sea Grant network meeting, which, chances are, you won't, because it's only for secret employees, but if you're listening, and you are, we'll be live. I think on September 19. Is that the Tuesday? I think that's the Tuesday. So come check us out. We do not yet have a location, but we will have a location soon, so come check us out there anyway, with that. So this one's fun. This interview, we got an email from a PR person saying we've got a paper coming out, but it's under embargo. And our good friend Sandra fabota recommended that we appear on this show. And I said, Well, if Sandy says, Come on, then we should have you on. So anyway, this is a paper that is out now, but, but it was under embargo, just like real members of the press, we had to wait to release it, but we're excited to bring it to you now. And so it's an interview. We're going to interview this woman named Eden Hataley, who is a PhD student at the University of Toronto, and they've done some really neat work summarizing microplastics in the region and making some policy recommendations. So let's just jump right there and talk about it. But first, I think we all know what Eden is by trade. So it's time for that theme song

Unknown Speaker 2:59
researcher researcher gonna teach us about

Stuart Carlton 3:08
the Great Lakes. Our guest today is Eden Hatley, and she is a doctoral student in the Rockman lab at the University of Toronto in the t dot ODOT home of the igler conference, and teach me about the Great Lakes Live, which Eden was not at, but I was Eden. How are you today?

Eden Hataley 3:23
Good, good. Thank you for having me.

Stuart Carlton 3:25
And you're an author of a paper. It's actually one of two papers released all at once. I'm always curious how this goes, so maybe we'll talk a little bit behind the scenes. But the paper is called towards a management strategy for microplastic pollution in the Laurentian Great Lakes, and this is ecological risk assessment and management part two. And that is out now. Right now, you can go check it out at the Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic sciences, which is a very nice journal I cited a lot back when I was in graduate school as a fishery student, less so now, but that's okay, Eden, thanks so much for coming on. So let's talk about this paper first. Let's get on the same page. We microplastics is kind of a big we spent a lot of time on microplastics from like the very first episode teach me about the Great Lakes. Episode 133, years ago, four, oh my goodness, was almost four years ago anyway, episode one, and all the way through. You know right now, I suppose. So microplastics is, in many ways, the story spanning the podcast. So we're all on the same page. And for brand new listeners, what is a microplastic? Exactly? How would you define one, as opposed to macro plastic, I guess. And where do they come from?

Eden Hataley 4:34
So I think at its most basic, microplastics are a particle of plastic less than five millimeters in size, so made of plastic and small, which different, differentiates from a macro plastic, which is a piece of plastic larger than five millimeters in size. But in reality, they're they are much more complex than that, like size and plastic or just two. Parts of the equation in our lab, we like to refer to them as a complex suite of contaminants. So really, no one microplastic is like another. When they're found in the environment, they are so drastically different, and this is physically and chemically. So physically, as I said, they can be different sizes, but they also can be different shapes, and the shape might determine where it came from, so the source of the microplastic but they also can be diverse chemically. So they are made up of different polymer backbones. They have different chemical additives that are added to plastic products to give them different functions or characteristics, and they can accumulate different chemical contaminants once they're already in the environment. So really, microplastics, diverse, complex, chemically and physically interesting. I hadn't really

Stuart Carlton 5:51
thought about that. But, of course, there are zillions of types of plastics, right? And all of these break down, and it's everything, like the classic former example is always the microbeads in like the or, you know, when I was doing, like, my T zone or whatever, right? And less so now, because I think I don't know if those are illegal, but they're certainly kind of out of the picture, but, but that's just one of, I mean, almost unlimited number of plastics, and they can come in kind of unlimited ways. And so when I first heard about micro plastics, so this is, this is when I first heard about them. The idea was, we know these are there. We know they're kind of everywhere, but we aren't sure about the effects. But that was four or five years ago. What does it say to the science now? What do we know about the effects of microplastics in the environment or in the Great Lakes? I guess, more specifically, if you can get that specific, yeah,

Eden Hataley 6:38
before I jump into that, I want to jump back to you talking about all the different sources that microplastics come from. You mentioned microbeads, which is a great example of what we call a primary microplastic. So a primary microplastic is something that's made to be that small. So microbeads that you find, yes, in your face, wash, tooth, toothpaste, those are now banned in Canada and the US, but you still find them including products primary microplastic. Example, also includes different abrasives used in industrial processes. And then we have secondary microplastics. So they come from the wear and tear of larger plastic items, so things like when you get a bottle or a bag that breaks down and fragments in the environment. So those are another two ways we classify microplastics, primary and secondary, all right. Now,

Stuart Carlton 7:23
we gotta hold on. Now you're gonna try to answer all my questions, because you're a pro, but I gotta go back. They had them in toothpaste. Are you kidding me? People are brushing their teeth with little plastic whatevers,

Eden Hataley 7:32
yeah, brushing your teeth, washing your face, washing your body, yeah, I don't know what shampoo and conditioner maybe, but yeah, a lot of different products had these little, tiny, tiny microbeads used as abrasives, and they're still found in cleaning products. So yes, but that is a thing of the past. Now not no longer are the goods we use in the washroom. Thankfully. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 7:53
excellent. So then you were before I interrupted you to talk about something stupid, you were going to try to give me a very big picture update of what we know in terms of, are these, you know? Are they just unnatural? Are they also harmful? It's like what you know, something might be unnatural. Well, it depends your definition of natural. That can get complicated, since humans are a part of nature, I suppose. But are they just something new that's out there, novel, or is there actual harm that comes from them? Yeah.

Eden Hataley 8:20
So there have been lab studies that show harm with different types of species tested in the lab. So things that studies show it's a variety of biological effects, like changes in gene expression, changes in reproduction, decreases in growth, inflammation, reduced filtration and respiration, decreased survival. So a whole whack of things seen in lab studies that show that microplastics can cause harm. I think one of the reasons why we see such a whole suite of different effects is because, like we talked about at the beginning, every microplastic is so different from the next. So you really have, as I said, a suite of contaminants, not just one contaminant that can cause harm in many different ways. In terms of humans, what do we know? We don't really know. I think we know that we're being exposed to microplastics, often through inhalation. So yes, there are microplastics in the air, as well as our diet, drinking water, you know, fish that come from the environment. There's one study that looks at beer that was brewed with water sourced from the Great Lakes that found microplastics. So we know we're consuming them. We don't know what that means. So there's not enough research to really say at this point for humans,

Stuart Carlton 9:40
we're going to reach out to Mike Williams, our contact at Great Lakes brewing, who we sat down for to interview. Gosh, last year. You'll just have to go find him, teach me about the Great lakes.com. I'll put a link in the show notes. Very sad, because I know their water, I'm pretty sure their water comes from the lake, but hopefully they are able to Mike, can you microplastics? Can you. Filter out the micro plastics. Do you know? Is that a thing? Yeah,

Eden Hataley 10:03
I know. I think there's a lot of research actually, like for drinking water and treatment plants and what can be done to reduce micro plastics and drinking water, for sure.

Stuart Carlton 10:11
Yeah, the story telling me just reminds me a lot of P FOSS too, right? Where it's like, it's this whole suite of things, and we know it's bad. We don't know how bad, but same deal. Yes, that's

Eden Hataley 10:20
a good comparison. Yeah.

Stuart Carlton 10:21
All right, so let's This brings us to your paper that you wrote. This was one of two papers, since you all published, this is all from the Rockman lab. A couple of different people take the lead on different parts of this. So big picture, what are these papers trying to do, and what are they trying to say?

Eden Hataley 10:36
Yeah. So I guess the origin stories of the two papers two things kind of happened about at the same time that kind of brought about these two papers. So the first was Environment and Climate Change Canada. So our federal environment ministry here in Canada contracted members of the Rockman lab to write a report on microplastics in the Great Lakes, specifically on what concentrations we're seeing, how people are measuring them. And then to think about if we were to include microplastics in the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement, and I can define the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement in a second. What exactly would that look like? How could we include this contaminant in the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement? So for listeners who might not know what the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement is. It's a long standing agreement between the US and Canada that outlines binational priorities and actions to resolve any trans boundary environmental problems in the Great Lakes. So environmental problems that both Canada and the US are dealing with. So that happened here at home. So we started, we wrote this report, and we were starting to think about, okay, how could microplastics be men better managed on a binational scale in the Great Lakes? So how could the two countries work coordinate? How could they coordinate and work together? The second thing that was happening is down in California, there were some policy changes by the state government that mandated it manage microplastic pollution in its coastal environments better. So these policy changes brought about a whole bunch of things, but two of the things that it brought about were two expert work groups, one that was looking at ecological health and one that was looking at human health. And the goal of these two work groups was to create risk assessment frameworks, so to develop these thresholds of concern tied to management actions for microplastics in the aquatic environment, and then for micro for humans being exposed to microplastics through drinking water. So, long story short, the drinking water and human exposure group deem there was not enough information to do this, which we already touched upon earlier, so they weren't able to develop thresholds, but the ecological health group was so they are the ones who built this risk assessment framework that we then brought up to the Great Lakes and apply to data here at home on concentrations of microplastics in the

Stuart Carlton 12:56
Great Lakes. So a bunch of experts got together in California and created a risk assessment framework, which I don't know is that like a way of is that like a set of criteria that you might use to evaluate different risks? Is that how you would describe what a framework might be? So

Eden Hataley 13:13
I think generally an ecological risk assessment framework. So as I said, you can do them for human health. You can do them for ecological health. Is the process for evaluating how likely it is that the environment might be impacted as a result of exposure to one or more environmental stressors. So that could be a chemical like microplastics or like PFAs, like we talked about, can also be something like land use change or invasive species. It can be many different things. So it's just a process of trying to figure out how, if and how much risk the environment is currently experiencing as a result of some stressor.

Stuart Carlton 13:46
But the process is key there, right? It's you're you're having this way of doing it. So it's not just a bunch of people sitting around and deciding they have criteria or things like that.

Eden Hataley 13:53
It's is that, yeah, it's systematic, and in try to formalize it a little bit, yeah. And in terms of the one we used, it's actually quantitative. So it's not just a qualitative risk assessment, which exists as well, but it's quantitative, right? There are thresholds developed that show numbers concentrations at which you might expect to see harm. So it's very much based in in research, and is built from laboratory studies that are testing the effects of microplastics. And

Stuart Carlton 14:21
so based on those studies, they said this level, this threshold, is potential harm. And so if we find something that exceeds meets or exceeds this threshold, it might be one level. If it meets or exceeds another threshold, it might be a higher level of risk. Is that

Eden Hataley 14:33
exactly so the one that was built in California by this expert working group, they came up with five management tiers that range from a low to a high regulatory concern, and four risk thresholds so that also range from a low risk to a high risk. And the concentration of microplastics, microplastics increases as you move up. So they had tiers and thresholds on an increasing scale. And so

Stuart Carlton 14:59
you take this. Set of criteria developed by California experts, or actually, global,

Eden Hataley 15:04
global experts in California. Maybe they were virtual. I don't even know it could have been virtual, but probably, probably at least partially, yeah, brought on by the California government.

Stuart Carlton 15:12
Yes, yes. Okay, and so you took this set of criteria and you said, we're gonna apply this to microplastics in the Great Lakes, and you couldn't know for human health, because they just didn't have the studies like you're saying, trying to make this as objective as possible, which means you need the lab data, and if you don't have the lab data, then you keep get the lab data, then we'll revisit this as always. The actual lesson of teaching about the Great Lakes is keep funding. People to do work. Keep funding anyway. And so you decided to bring this to the Great Lakes, and you wanted to apply that framework to the environment in the Great Lakes. Well, one obvious way to do that is to go collect a whole bunch of data. But that strikes me as pricey, is that? And so y'all, I think, yeah, you took a different tack. Is that, right? How did you, how did you find the data?

Eden Hataley 15:53
Yes, we did not go out and sample all around the Great Lakes, which I would have loved. I would love to be on a boat for months boating around the Great Lakes. That'd be very cool. But what we did is we got all of our data from existing data sets, data sets from studies published in the peer reviewed literature. So the first study that looked at micro plastics in the Great Lakes was published, I believe, in 2011 so there's just over a decade's worth of data out there now. And so we looked to see if people had published their data sets with their studies that and we could get that available online. We contacted some researchers and asked for their raw data, and then we compiled a whole bunch of raw data that has been collected by different research groups, some based in at universities, some nonprofit organizations, and that was the data we used to do this risk assessment. I believe we had data for microplastics and water from all five great lakes. At the time. There was no data published for microplastics and sediment for Lake Superior, but there was for the other four Great Lakes. Now, I believe, though, there has been a study that looks at microplastics and sediments for Lake Superior. So there was decent coverage of the region available in the peer reviewed literature,

Stuart Carlton 17:06
I see And is there a concern? So I'm working on what meta analysis right now and in social sciences. And for listeners who don't know what that is, essentially what a meta analysis is, is you take a bunch of papers and you analyze them, you take the data and you you do an analysis on that to try to draw broader conclusions. Because any one study, there may be a bunch of reasons why it's kind of idiosyncratic or unusual, but if you get a bunch of studies together, then you can try to really get at some some broader truth. And so big problem with meta analyzes is, is what they call the file drawer problem, which is stuff that tends to get published in papers tends to be things with positive results, things that don't have positive results tend to not get and so then or that there just might be missing data, and that the missing data might make a difference, do you know? And so you got data from published papers, did you look for other sources, or was that just not feasible here? No,

Eden Hataley 17:56
this was really the only source like what was available in the peer reviewed literature, which is actually a big takeaway from our papers. One of the main suggestions we have in both of our papers is that we need a coordinated management, or, sorry, a coordinated monitoring program that samples for microplastics across different environmental matrices, so in sediment and in water across the Great Lakes run by both the Canadian and American governments, and this is so that we really get a data set that is in sync with each other, right, so that all the different samples are collected using the same methods, the same methods are used in the lab to analyze the samples. Of course, that's an issue with our the data set. We used different researchers use different methods, and that can make a difference. So a big example for microplastics is, I said, initially, there's a size fraction that of plastic particles that are considered within the microplastic size range. So this is often from the one micron to 5000 micron size range. Not all researchers go down to the same level, they often all have the same high level, five microns or 5000 microns, but people go down to 500 microns, 300 microns, 150 microns. And the problem is, we know that these smaller microplastics are present in the environment at much higher concentrations, so the people that go down further have higher concentrations compared to the people that don't, and you get these data sets that aren't directly comparable. So in our papers, we did apply a correction factor to make it so the concentrations that are representative are for the entire microplastic size range. But this is just one example of differences you might get with different research groups. There are many. So what we really need to have a good understanding of risks and exposure to wildlife and humans. Is a coordinated monitoring strategy that's run by government agencies across the entire region. I want to come back to that, because

Stuart Carlton 19:53
I have some questions about that. But first, let's, let's get to the high level results. I got you distracted, all my fault as usual, but so you. At this and you found every study you could find. And you contact me, we got data. And so what largely Did you find in terms of, you know, microplastics in the Great Lakes and the different levels of threat, or threat threat, different thresholds of risk? Maybe that's the right, whatever term you would like, what did you find?

Eden Hataley 20:18
So in the first paper, which focuses on monitoring what we the big takeaway is that data spanning the last 10 years shows that the Great Lakes are widely polluted with microplastics in water, sediment and wildlife in the second level in the second paper, when we compared the concentrations we summarized in the first paper, we saw that about 90% of water samples that were collected in the Great Lakes surpassed safe levels for aquatic wildlife, and that 90% that signifies low risk. Remember, we talked about the thresholds that range from low risk to high risk. So that's that first threshold. If we look at that fourth threshold, it's about 20% of water samples. So still, you know, that's almost a quarter of all water samples collected over the past 10 years show a concentration that is above some safe limit.

Stuart Carlton 21:09
So 90% are at least this lowest concern, which you say, the policy response that y'all call for there is to increase the monitoring frequency, right? Well, one out of five, one out of five, 20% are, are at this highest level of concern. And you have a policy response there that there should be regulated source reduction, and that's a recommendation that you have, but that's something else, that regardless of the policy response, which I think can be a debate, right? The what's not a debate is one out of five are at such a high level that they're they're, well, what is, what is the highest concern? What is, what are like the results at that, I guess, at the different tiers, is that something that you can talk about with this framework, or not? So the

Eden Hataley 21:51
that highest threshold, so the fourth threshold is a concentration at which you would expect 10% of species in the community to be impacted. So the lower threshold is 5% of species in the community, and that higher, that higher threshold that also only uses toxicity endpoints at the organismal and population level, those that lower threshold includes endpoints across all by levels of biological organization.

Stuart Carlton 22:19
Okay, what's, what's the end point here? I'm sorry, help me. Help me with endpoint. Yeah,

Eden Hataley 22:23
so it might be something someone looks for in a toxicity study. I am not an eco toxicologist, and I won't pretend to be, but a lot of a lot of my colleagues are, and so you can just look for different endpoints that signify toxicity at all levels of biological organization. Got it, okay,

Stuart Carlton 22:38
so then you found that one out of five has this highest level of concern, almost, or nine out of 10 at least, or at the meet the lower level, the lowest level of concern, well across the first threshold, I suppose. And so then you turn this into some policy recommendations. Now, were those policy recommendations things that you came up with, or were those part of the framework as designed during the that process? I almost said the California experts again, but, like, it's such a stupid term, right? But yeah,

Eden Hataley 23:11
they so that was part of the expert working group design. So they built this risk assessment framework and tied it to a management framework. So they included those recommendation recommended actions according to the each threshold,

Stuart Carlton 23:24
okay? And so then you took that and applied it within the Great Lakes. And so in this paper, you argue that this should be part of the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement, which is that big binational agreement, in fact. Oh, let me plug ourselves. If you want to hear more about the water quality agreement, we interviewed Chris korleski, the director of EPA, glenpo, back at teaching about the Great Lakes 71 I think it was December of 2022 so we'll link to that in the show notes as well. Why is the water quality agreement the right way to address this? In your your mind, there

Eden Hataley 23:53
is a annex in the water quality agreement, annex three, that is set up to deal with what the agreement calls chemicals of mutual concern, or CMCS. There are eight existing CMCS, and microplastics fits right in there, right? It's a chemical contaminant, just like other chemical contaminants. So it it's kind of the perfect home for microplastics within the agreement. So that's one place that we suggest microplastics may fit well into the agreement is under annex three chemicals of mutual concern. The second place that we see microplastics fitting in has to do with monitoring, actually. So it is the state of the Great Lakes reporting, which is a report that's released every three years that uses a set of indicators to assess the health of the Great Lakes. And there is a toxic chemical sub indicator, which includes a lot of the same chemicals that are designated as chemicals of mutual concern. And we think that's another potential home for microplastics being used as a sub indicator under the toxic chemicals indicator. And both the inclusion either as a toxic chemical sub indicator or a chemical. Of mutual concern would necessitate that the government comes up with a monitoring strategy for microplastics in the Great Lakes.

Stuart Carlton 25:06
And have you spoken with people, either in an environment, environment, climate change, Canada, the EPA, or, you know, role of agencies and states in the States about this? What is the reception been? Or is it just, are you in the first stages of that process.

Eden Hataley 25:21
Interestingly, anybody can actually nominate a contaminant to become a chemical mutual concern, a citizen. Can groups? Can anybody? So we are actually in the process of nominating microplastics to be a chemical mutual concern. So there's instructions that the that the US and Canada give on how to do it and how to create a nomination package and what information they want. So we are actually in the final stages of putting together a nomination package. I think right now, it's 30 pages in length, and we are going to send that off to the right people who are in charge of getting that in front of I think it's representatives from EPA and E triple C, who will then make their own assessment to see whether they agree and and make a recommendation on on whether or not microplastics should be included as a chemical mutual concern so TBD on what they say in relation to our package, but we have put together a package to actually do a formal submission. Interesting.

Stuart Carlton 26:21
I wonder what extent that's a scientific process, and to what extent that's a, I mean, it's gotta be at least partially a political process.

Eden Hataley 26:27
Yes, because I think the the scientific groups make a recommendation, and then that goes up to a political actor, and then they decide, well, Eden, this

Stuart Carlton 26:36
is really interesting to hear. You. Come on and talk about, I mean, microplastics, which are obviously an important thing to talk about in this this application of a risk assessment framework and a policy and a way that they all overlap and the kind of the condition of the Great Lakes. But that's actually not why we invited you here and teach me about the Great Lakes this week. The reason we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes is to ask you two questions, the first of which is this, if you could choose to have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch. Which one would you choose?

Eden Hataley 27:04
So I have a question in response, okay, why donuts and sandwiches?

Stuart Carlton 27:10
Because that is how I wrote the question three years ago. Because it's a hard choice, right? Actually, for most people, it's a very easy choice, and it definitely leans one way or another, but it's interesting when it doesn't. So that's why donors it. So, you know, yeah, there are lots of choices you could make, but these are the choices we're

Eden Hataley 27:26
asking you to make. No, I love both donuts and sandwiches. I think I lean towards sandwich, and I'm a very classic deli sandwich person, Turkey, cheddar, a nice bun, tomato, lettuce, a pickle, mustard. I've loved that my entire life, and I think I will keep loving it. Fantastic.

Stuart Carlton 27:47
So you are in Toronto, and I am going to come to Toronto one day, and I'm going to go to Queen Mother, that's where I'm going to go first, and I'm going to get the Pink Guy, and I'm going to say, Dang, this is good, best food I've had outside of New Orleans, okay, but then I can only eat that for six or eight days in a row because of budget, and so on the seventh day, I'm going to want to go to lunch and get a nice deli sandwich. Where should I go in Toronto, near the university, if you want, or wherever to get a delicious deli sandwich. So

Eden Hataley 28:15
I don't know if I have an answer. In Toronto, I'm actually currently in Kingston, Ontario, where

Stuart Carlton 28:20
I grew up. Okay, that's fine. I'm going to Kingston. Then, yes. Okay, so

Eden Hataley 28:24
I have an answer for Kingston, Ontario. It's called the golden rooster. It's on Princess Street, which are is our main street downtown, and they make a wonderful deli sandwich, a very a classic Kingston deli sandwich that has been good for as long as I can remember, and will continue to be good forever, continue

Stuart Carlton 28:42
to be good just for as long as it could be. And the second question was this, you know, one thing we like to do with this show is we think about the Great Lakes as a sort of a resource, ecological, environmental, cultural resource to be treasured, and we like to share that with our audience. And one of the way that we do it is by talking about special places. And so is there a special place in the Great Lakes cu that you'd like to share? And what makes it so special? It

Eden Hataley 29:07
has to be Kingston. So Kingston, I said, where I grew up. Kingston sits like at the eastern end of Lake Ontario, right almost where it meets the St Lawrence. So I spent a lot of time growing up on the water, lots of swimming in the lake and also in the river, traveling around the 1000 Islands, which is not technically the Great Lakes, but the 1000 Islands in the St Lawrence River are amazing. So that's definitely the most special place for me, in the Great Lakes. But I have not seen all the Great Lakes, and that is on my bucket list, to do a road trip around all the Great Lakes. One day I will, and I will swim in each of them. You

Stuart Carlton 29:42
could, Oh, do you dive? You should do a big five dive.

Eden Hataley 29:45
I'm not, I know. I don't think I'm that adventurous. I I'll swim on the surface, and

Stuart Carlton 29:49
it sounds not fun. I'll be honest. Like the big five dive, you get up at the crack of the crack of dawn, and you go and you like, dip yourself in each lake with your little snorkel or scuba stuff. I. But then you got to get up and go, because you got to get to all five in one day. And so, oh, I had never even heard of that. Oh, yeah, big five dive. Um, I hadn't either talked to someone about it, but still, that is cool, yeah, no, but toe dip, just do a toe dip in each Yeah, that's

Eden Hataley 30:14
I would try and do that. I would be game for that. Okay, a lot of driving, but I would do it. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 30:19
gotta do a big five time. All right, add that to your list. Edna Hatley, a PhD student in the Rockman lab at the University of Toronto, congrats on this paper. This is interesting stuff, and good luck with the policy side of it, with the difference that you're trying to make. But thank you so much for coming on and teaching us all about the Great Lakes.

Eden Hataley 30:35
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 30:42
You was

Stuart Carlton 30:54
an interesting interview, and it's always good to talk microplastics, because it's so, I mean, so critical. We need to get out of this, though, because right now we do PFAs of microplastics, and that's just a whole lot that could be depressing or at least a little bit upsetting. But we've got some really fun stuff coming up ahead, so keep listening. We've got we're at the time of year. We're pretty much the rest of the year is almost set, because we know we have a live show coming up. We have an interview coming up with John Hartig, who's written a really neat book, A not depressing book about sort of Great Lakes heroes or leaders, that we'll have information on Halloween special coming up soon, and then before we know it, it'll be time for the lakeies. So really, the rest of this year is almost played out, and it's going to be a good one. This is our favorite time of year. We're coming into once the semester starts. So keep tuning in. And if you haven't subscribed, go ahead and subscribe. Please make sure you do that. But on top of that, it's been a minute since I've asked for rating or review. We haven't got a new rating in a while. Could you give us a rating? A five star one, to be very specific, be nice to give a new rating or maybe a new review. Just go, click that button. Earl pod thing, hit the five. I don't think it actually makes any difference, but it's fun to see them come in every now and again. And it could be lonely out here. Lonely out here in pod land. So if you give us a rating, that would be sweet, thank you.

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