Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes. Welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice a month. I can't even pretend that's true, a periodic podcast in which I agree, novice as people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I know just very recently how hot the tea is if you try to sip it too soon. But I don't know a lot about the Great Lakes. That's the point of this show. This is a different kind of episode. This is a follow up episode. I will get into that in just a minute. But first, let's introduce we're gonna call your panelists today are co hosts our panel of CO hosts, starting off with Meghan Lake lover gun. How are you today?

Megan Gunn 0:45
I'm good. Stuart. weather's been nice. And it's not as nice today. But the weather has been nice. I've been in a really good mood.

Stuart Carlton 0:51
No, my feet are cold today. Yeah, we had baseball. I had a youth baseball practice on Monday. It's like we're just having practice. And it was super fun, basically, until well, I won't go over that in a public forum. We're also joined so normally I have a guest today. We have no guests. We have a second host. We have a Titus soil. Heimer. You know his Dr. Fish Titus style Heimer. from Wisconsin Sea Grant. Titus. How are you?

Titus Seilheimer 1:13
I am doing wonderful. Nice to see both of you. And

Stuart Carlton 1:18
there it is. That's right. We can see each other. It's it's not a video show. Maybe we'll cut up some shorts though. That's what I learned. I cut up my shorts for for ask Dr. Fisher. We got those on YouTube. So maybe we'll cut up some shorts here. And you can look at those. We'll see.

Titus Seilheimer 1:32
Is that a Bart Simpson reference? Kind

Stuart Carlton 1:35
of right. Anyway, so here's the deal. We had the the lakeith, which is our annual award ceremony, as I call it, quite possibly not the least prestigious podcast, Great Lakes Podcast Awards that there are. And after the lake ease, Titus started texting me just all of the time. So Titus is a time Leakey runner up. And he didn't text me about that. The first thing he texted me about errors about omissions about things that we could have done better. And, and so after, I pretended to ignore the first 23 of these texts, but they just kept coming. I couldn't

Titus Seilheimer 2:11
help it. I was I was just listening to it. And I wanted you to have the experience of having me interact with you. Sure, it was like a week later, two weeks later, but you know, I was just, I gotta let him know. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 2:25
no, that's good. But the funny thing is about the way this goes is I had already completely forgotten what we had said and talked about. Like, I know, I know what you're saying. But so the first thing is, so we had a great lakes animal of the year. And Megan, I'm sure remembers what the Great Lakes animal of the year was this year. Oh, I'm so rosy spoon Bill naturally. Yeah, yeah. But also nominated was this I'm not gonna even pronounce this right. We said the key the key. What was the Titus

Titus Seilheimer 2:52
is the Chi, the Chi Chi

Stuart Carlton 2:55
was also nominated. And apparently, we instantly after mentioning the chi i started, which is maybe a type of Cisco or something I don't even know. We then started talking about Cisco more generally, and completely forgotten about the chi and Titus. I guess, as a doctor fish was deeply offended by this.

Titus Seilheimer 3:14
I mean, Megan, you brought it as a kya. You know, this goofball fish. And then you you know, anybody, like everybody knows Cisco. So I was I was like, I was excited. And then I was like, Hey, where did this where did the Chi talk? Because I want to hear more of Okay, have you

Megan Gunn 3:30
easily derail on other things?

Stuart Carlton 3:35
It's like he's never listened before. So yeah, it's hardly surprising. It's unsurprising that in the Leakey so the thing that we're trying to give a potential Leakey to, we instantly forgot about so Titus, I bet you a little bit about chi, tell us about chi, is it a Cisco? Why? What's the deal with chi?

Titus Seilheimer 3:51
Yes, so Chi Chi, you know, when we talk Cisco like Cisco is just a mess of it's a name it's a Cisco itself when it when you say Cisco, you know, I hear quarter bonus or TD, or I heard a DI, which is other people might know as Les caring. But this kind of broad group, this multiple species group called deepwater Cisco's, which are things like the bloater. Or you might know that as a smoke chub when you're at the fish market. So chi is one of those deepwater Cisco so it's a it's a quarter gonna sky. Kind of a cousin to the to the whitefish to the Cisco to the lake earring, whatever you want to call them. But yeah, kya is a neat kind of goofy looking fish with these big kind of Dumbo like fins. They're just you just got these huge eyes. And yeah, it's a neat fish that I don't think a lot of people have heard about.

Stuart Carlton 4:54
No, I don't. Yeah, I don't.

Megan Gunn 4:56
So Can people eat them? Oh,

Titus Seilheimer 4:59
yeah, yeah. They're not, they're not really caught a lot. I think they would be they would be good as a smoked fish kind of like a bloater. So if you if you have them, they're fairly small though. Are

Stuart Carlton 5:10
they? Where are they? Are they in the gray? Oh, yeah, here I'm looking at a picture. And they do have these big. Their dorsal fin sticks up within there. Oh, boy, not the pectoral fin. But the one is not what is that one? Pelvic fin, pelvic fin. Thank you, Titus. Oh, my God. And I have a master's degree in fisheries biology. It's been a minute, though. So their pelvic fin is really big, too. So are these found throughout the Great Lakes? What is the deal with them? Yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 5:36
I mean, originally, they were Lake Superior, Michigan, Huron and Ontario, that was kind of their original distribution. But now, if you want to see kya, you gotta go to Lake Superior. So they the only place that they're left in the Great Lakes, although they are very abundant, or fairly abundant up there. So doing well, but not doing well in other lakes? Why is that?

Megan Gunn 6:01
Why why did their populations decimated the other lakes?

Titus Seilheimer 6:06
You know, it's, I think it's the kind of the same story of a lot of our Great Lakes species, they, there was kind of this, you know, unregulated fishing. You know, they were harvested a lot. And there was actually so the the name Kai is actually the name that Lake Michigan commercial fisherman gave this fish back in the day. So when Celts Celts was this, the scientist guy surveying all the Cisco's, back in the 20s, or the teens. And, you know, this was the name that they were kind of known by over here in Lake Michigan, they just, hey, we got some chi. And I've heard that the name, somebody was looking into the name, they were like, you know, what is the origin like, that's what they know that it was, you know, this, this, you know, name that was used by the fishermen in Lake Michigan. But and the only kind of reference to kya. Elsewhere is, it's this in the Navy, it's this brush that they use to like, clean their clothes. So you know, maybe a connection there from people who were in the Navy. And then this is a small fish. So kind of an interesting, interesting, you know, I just

Stuart Carlton 7:23
figured we bastardize some sort of indigenous or Native American name, but no, maybe it's a navy thing. Right?

Titus Seilheimer 7:29
Right. You know, of course,

Megan Gunn 7:31
brush their clothes. That would be weird. But, I mean, who knows?

Titus Seilheimer 7:34
I mean, you could do it.

Stuart Carlton 7:38
For a heartbeat. That's what I like to really start rubbing the fish.

Titus Seilheimer 7:43
You know, the natural kind of glitter of the skin.

Megan Gunn 7:50
It's the prettiest. All right, it's a pretty, it's

Stuart Carlton 7:53
so interesting. So, um, you say that they're cousins, we can get a little nerdier than that on this show. So So is it? Are they sure family? Is it a genius? What? What kind of cousins? Are they are though? Yeah, if you know what I'm getting at?

Titus Seilheimer 8:08
You know, I think they are actually when you so they're all core Goannas genus. Okay. And really, this, this group of deepwater Cisco's are all, you know, pretty closely related, probably have, you know, differentiated into different species since the last ice age? So, you know, over the last 20 20,000 years or so. And actually, the, the Lake Huron Kai, I have probably just hybridized too much with, you know, maybe the bloaters over there. And, yeah, they're, you know, all the same genus there, within the scientific kind of Great Lakes naming of fish community, you know, in the last couple of years, a lot of argument about, you know, are these different species? Are they just all Cisco like are today that are are just, you know, not genetically different? And it seems like the consensus now is they are different species. So, where

Stuart Carlton 9:07
do you where do you follow that in terms of lumping and splitting? Because, yeah, so when I was, you know, I studied under taxonomists back, back in college, and in my first round of graduate school, and I think then, I was much more of a splitter now, I tend to be much more of a lumper where do you fall in doesn't, and why does it matter? I guess, whether or not they're different species, or whether you lump or split?

Titus Seilheimer 9:28
Yeah, I think that's, you know, with, like, because this is a species that was identified back in the 20s. You know, it was, you know, that's pre genetics time. So it was all morphometric it was like, you know, measuring the all the fin links and eyesize and all that. And now we're kind of reassessing a lot of those groups with the genetics. But, you know, I think there is a lot of talk these days about restoring these deepwater Cisco's in the different lakes. So, for the last last decade or so, the US Fish and Wildlife Service has been catching bloater here in Lake Michigan, starting them off in a hatchery and then releasing them into Lake Ontario to kind of try to restart those boater populations there. You know, also a lot of talk about Cisco's restoring Cisco's around the Great Lakes. So you have to understand like, what is the species? And then start the discussions of, you know, I think we've heard or I've heard, hey, maybe we should be, maybe we could stack Kai back into Lake Michigan. So, you know, where do you get those from? And, you know, those, those are kind of the questions that I think understanding if it's a species or not, can be very useful for restoration.

Megan Gunn 10:47
Do they all serve as the same prey source for different predators? Or do they like, is like, so I saw that, that burbot like chi, but do they also like bloaters? Are they just focused on the Chi?

Titus Seilheimer 11:03
Yeah, so that, you know, that is? That's the question. I think, you know, it depends where you're at in the lake. So if I would, I would tell that, you know, that's the foodweb story of Lake Superior, basically. So, you know, Kai are kind of the deep water. They're, you know, offshore, and that's where they're being eaten by burbot. They're being eaten by the squid lake trout, really fat lake trout. bloater are more of a shoreline, like near shore fish. So there's not a lot of overlap. And that's, you know, part of what these species have done, they've kind of filled in these different niches out in the Great Lakes. So chi are kind of this deep water, the middle of Lake Superior, and they're actually moving like up and down, day and night, mainly feeding on the possum shrimp. They are, you know, then being eaten by those squid lake trout. And then in the closer to shore, that's where the bloaters are living. You might get some Yong chi swimming in you could get some bourbon eating both of those but and then the the actual the lien lake trout, kind of the lake trout you would go out fishing for are also that kind of near shore. So you know the what I think what's neat about these, these deepwater Cisco's, like the chi is how they've kind of filled in all these habitat and like feeding niches out in the lake. So it's like

Stuart Carlton 12:30
Darwin's finches, but but it looks a periodic. Exactly. And yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 12:34
I mean, that's, I think they have been referred to as you know, a kind of analogous to Darwin's finches. You can look at Lake Trout as well, as a, you know, a similar, like some of the forms of lake trout, which are still agreed to be the same species, but look very different. So, you know, really neat, really neat fish.

Stuart Carlton 12:56
So why is it why is it important to restore Cisco, so Cisco helped me understand, so they, they got kind of not fully extirpated, but their their populations went way down. And boy, this is. So I think, listeners, I mentioned this every now and again, but I actually pay no attention to whatever we were like, whatever it gets sent on this show. Because I'm so worried about the process of recording that I can't do, I can barely do one thing at once. And so I just forget stuff, like I had somebody reached out recently about an episode that they were on a year and a half ago or two. And I was like, I had to do some research to remember who they were. But it's fine. It's fine. That's just my own personal problem. So let's pretend that I don't remember the deal with Cisco, for the fun of it. And I think it's probably vaguely related to Salman and Howard tenor, who I do remember. So what's the deal with Cisco? Why is it important to restore?

Titus Seilheimer 13:43
Yeah, so you know, when we talk Cisco, Cisco restoration that's mainly a discussion on kind of like Michigan like Iran right now like that is historically they were this really big fishery, really important part of the the food webs so they were this food source for a lot of different you know, predator fish. And I think the idea here like, when we look at Lake Michigan, Lake Huron LLF numbers have declined. And, you know, maybe there is a space in this these food webs for more Cisco's and so state of Michigan has been stocking little little Cisco's into Saginaw Bay for the last couple of years. And they're putting a ton of them out there. And then they're gonna see, you know, what happens with them. So, you know, it's, I think it's, it's trying to create a food web that's, you know, sort of more natural, that's a good food source. And, yeah, so I think it'll

Stuart Carlton 14:43
work though. So the challenge was stocking, DNR is always want to stock Well, I'm not that's a broad brush to paint with. But when I was at Georgia, I was working on on a imperiled species of soccer and the DNR consistently wanted to stop them and the broader point we're making is you can talk about you want, but unless you want to do it every year, you need to sort of fix the This fix whatever the issue is, yeah, yeah. And so maybe you do want to talk them every year. And stalking is great, because it's a great outreach opportunity, it shows that you're doing something. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. But But does it make sense to stop there? Do you have an opinion on that? Or is it? Are they doing something to sort of within? Forget, let's not talk about Michigan? Specifically? What do we need to do to get it? So let's talking makes sense, I guess.

Titus Seilheimer 15:24
Yeah, you know, I think I support it, you know, stacking of Cisco, it is like, we it's an opportunity, I think it's an interesting research angle to to see, you know, how they do, are they going to, you know, succeed, like, ideally, you want them to, you know, be able to stock them enough where they become, you know, self sufficient populations. You know, Lake Superior has a big Cisco population. And it's also kind of very, like, their, whether or not they have good year classes, you know, these big kind of really successful years have a lot of baby fish, which we just apparently had one, like, you know, just in on the science from kind of last year report out, was, they saw a ton of Cisco all over Lake Superior, which is great news, because it had been, you know, they're sort of like on decade scales where they, they have these huge booms. And then, you know, they kind of, don't always succeed in their, in their kind of potential to produce these little, little fish. And, you know, maybe there's some climate parts to that maybe ice covers a piece of that it's, you know, a lot of questions about what's happening. So I think, you know, here, we're, we've got, you know, our Lake Michigan, Lake Huron food webs that are kind of, you know, lots of non native invasive species in there. And maybe, maybe Cisco kind of find their place and do well, and we'd have maybe more of a resilient foodweb. Excellent.

Megan Gunn 17:00
So two questions. How is deep water? And I was hoping you answered. Yes. So how deep so So,

Stuart Carlton 17:12
in fairness, you left you you ended up kind of up? Like the second question was coming, right? It was like, how many people on Earth? And we're waiting for the end, waiting for the end? All right.

Titus Seilheimer 17:22
Yes. So generally, near shore, that's the shallow water, that'd be out to about 100 meter or 30 meters. So about 100 feet, and then everything else is deep water. Okay.

Megan Gunn 17:33
So my second question is, how would this stocking work for these deep water, Cisco? So in something that's much shallower than that, right, do they? Do they think they release them in the near shore area? And they find their way to the deep water? Or do they like go into the middle? Like, dump them and say, good luck?

Titus Seilheimer 17:56
Yeah, so that, you know, and that would be the question, like, I think that is, those are the kinds of questions that we would have to get answers to, you know, with, like a bloater. So bloaters are one of those deepwater Cisco? Like Remora That's a great name. It's floaters. They come up in the nets, they're all bloated. Yeah, but they want people to eat them. Like, that's why they call them chubs. And people are like,

Stuart Carlton 18:23
Wisconsin, ladies and gentlemen, Wisconsin. Oh, sorry, I cut you off. Yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 18:27
so. So it's, you know, I think those are the questions like and with with a bloater. So bloaters are actually spawning in like February and, you know, four or 500 feet of water, but then in the spring, like they those eggs hatch out, and they actually come in to shore. So you know, there could be depending on when you stack these, so they might be coming into kind of shallower water at in a part of their first year, you know, taking advantage of that warmer, warmer water close to shore so they can kind of grow and feed and then you know, as they get bigger, they're gonna go out to deeper water. But yeah, and like some there's some fish species like they've actually started stocking, they'll stock lake trout off shore. So like Fish and Wildlife Service as their big boat, and they've got these tanks of fish on them. And they're actually like, you know, putting them in and I think part of that for for bloater stocking in Lake Ontario. They've been trying that and they're actually seeing that, you know, they're stocking them off this boat and then I don't know they're getting eaten or not even working, you know, doing that. So, yeah, lots of

Megan Gunn 19:37
this shouldn't be funny, but it's kind of a little bit

Stuart Carlton 19:39
funny. When we saw this. We saw the thing on SRT for fish, right? They'll play they used to planes for salmon stocking is is that were those adults or that they're moving? Or were they No, it was juveniles? Yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 19:50
that's yeah, just little little kind of, you know, it's like stalking off the truck off a boat off a plane. It's all the same thing.

Stuart Carlton 19:59
I'm gonna call six out there, like Lake Superior, the second cleanest of the Great Lakes beautiful. Out there behind Lake Michigan. We've had extensive conversations about this. Sorry, lakes. So

Titus Seilheimer 20:12
you said clean you should have said clear clear, you're out the cleanest. It's just a solid

Stuart Carlton 20:16
point, second clearest lake behind Lake Michigan which is artificial, well, not artificially naturally clear, in an artificial way. Thanks for the muscles. And we have on here the lake lover herself, who is a scuba diver, I'm assuming extraordinaire, so I think you should give Megan you should give Megan packs of chi, you should just give her like a little suitcase of chi and she can dive them down into the

Megan Gunn 20:45
slowly we'll go down. All right. So these bloaters do they get their names because they have the bins like they have all been they're being pulled up from these deep waters and then they're flooded because all this nitrogen and gases is that's peril. Yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 21:00
I mean, it's their swim bladder because you know, they're a deeper species and so there's swim bladder just expands. Oh, yeah.

Stuart Carlton 21:08
It's like the upper the reef fish in Florida.

Titus Seilheimer 21:11
Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 21:12
it does. It does. I mean, I'm, when I go I'll probably be a little bloated myself, but Excellent. Alright, so you there are also a couple other Leakey things now that we have you so it didn't win. But but so one of the enduring shames of this year's linkys is held Wisconsin heavy it was. We're embarrassed about this. We did not like it. But we are beholding to the submissions we get. And so I don't know what kind of grassroots campaign y'all did involve ballot stuffing. You're at grocery stores, asking people if they had a minute for the environment, or whatever.

Titus Seilheimer 21:49
What the survey scan this QR code? Yeah, exactly. It was an all hands on deck thing.

Stuart Carlton 21:54
Yeah. This is why we're tired just to work on this. But anyway, um, you mentioned this fish. I'm interested in the fish roll thing. Right. Were you part of that at all?

Titus Seilheimer 22:08
Because I mean, I helped Sharon with it. But yeah, I'm kind of the you know, she talks on the phone. And I like, fact checker, basically. Yeah.

Stuart Carlton 22:17
Okay. Well, what is the deal with that? So y'all, y'all convinced the whole nation of Sweden? Was it? To eat fish eggs from Wisconsin? What is the background there?

Titus Seilheimer 22:27
Yeah. So, like Scandinavia has, you know, they love their fish eggs over there. They love their tubes of fish eggs. And so they're, they're, they're kind of natural, you know, they have similar species over there. It's, you know, also gorgona IDs, and they have kind of overfish those, they don't really have the local sources, but like superiors, Cisco, those are today are an acceptable substitute. And they really liked them. And what had happened was WWF. Europe, or I think, yeah, WWF Europe, the World Wildlife Federation, had kind of tentatively marked our Great Lakes fisheries as a void. And that would have, you know, there's a big, they're interested in sustainability over there. And, you know, it would have really affected our ability to export those eggs to Scandinavia, and for them to import them and sell them. So, you know, and basically, it was they just didn't understand our management, how are these fisheries are managed, and they kind of said, hey, you know, avoid and so that's where my colleague Sharon Moen, came in, she was contacted by one of our producers over here, who processes and exports a lot of that row. And he was like, Can you help? And so, you know, it was a pretty complicated process of, of Sharon, talking to the folks over there, you know, connecting them with, with our managers, you know, providing all the data and explaining what it all meant. I think, you know, for them, they're kind of like somebody in Europe is like googling Great Lakes fisheries, and then, you know, can understand how the management works and just says, Well, I guess not manage well, and avoid so, you know, basically, she spent all this time explained it and they said, Hey, this is actually a sustainably managed product and it's okay to import. So

Stuart Carlton 24:32
a lot of this stuff is this. Yeah, so But y'all don't have like a certification. It's so so what I talked about on there was was how I every time I go to Ikea, so our director Thomas hook, he is from Sweden. He was raised in Alabama, born in Sweden. And so he always asks me to pick up some of these toothpaste tubes of callous caviar. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that wrong. In fact, I'm almost certain that I'm pronouncing it incorrectly, but I'm here and they have these at IKEA or he calls it a Kia and so I go to Ikea. Yeah, and this is a Swedish brand of Smorgasburg caviar, of course, and you look at it, I'll put a link in the show notes. So picture, it's literally a toothpaste tube. And it's got this very sweetest looking young man on it. eating like a cracker with just rows of this on it and some sort of white spread. But it also has a certification logo like me marine science or something. So if y'all don't like a certification thing, or Wisconsin, or did they not require that?

Titus Seilheimer 25:30
Yeah, so the WWF is like they do this certificate, you know, it's kind of like Seafood Watch, that the Monterey Bay Aquarium does. So they have like a void, good alternative and Oka best choice. So it's sort of a ranking like that. It's not a certification, like the, the the certifications, you know, basically, you're, you're paying money to usually a third party to like, you know, review this stuff and put a stamp on it, which kind of is what we did, like we provided web with the data so they could make a decision. We've been involved with the new kind of revisions for Seafood Watch as well, because, you know, we do have these really well managed fisheries. But it's complicated. Because we have multiple states, we've got two countries, we've got the tribes, everybody working together, but it's not as easy as just saying, Oh, I'll go to the NOAA Fisheries and ask them for, you know, some ocean fishery, where they all manage it the same. So yeah, it's been, you know, we are kind of also looking at some of these third party certifications. But you know, that kind of complexity of our fisheries can make it hard to because, you know, like, who would be certified? Who would participate? Are we talking? You know, is this like, Lake Superior fisheries are certified? Or is it just Wisconsin's white fish stuff? And like, who's gonna pay for it, too? Yeah, that's

Stuart Carlton 26:59
the other thing is the expense we talked about a lot with aquaculture stuff is, is in order to undergo certification. You know, for the producers in Indiana and Illinois, you know, it wouldn't be worth it. Because, yes, so expensive. Yeah. So I also put a link in the show notes to the calluses main webpage, which I've gone to, because I knew they made a vegan caviar. And so I wanted to send that in case Megan decided you want to. But once you go to the web page, I don't know how to describe this, it is terrifying. On the top of the webpage, there is another very Swedish looking guy. He's got a toast full of caviar, and on something else on eggs, and he's got his mouth open with his tongue kind of protruding. He looks very fired up to eat it. But they haven't been moving separated from the background of the photo where some kid is about to hit him on the head with a pillow for unknown reasons. And he's moving toward the camera in a way that can only be described as terrifying. Yeah,

Titus Seilheimer 27:56
he'll eat the caviar than elite you. Yeah. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 27:59
it looks like remember the black hole son video. I don't know if either of us have that. But he looks like he could be in the black hole son. music video. Okay, so there's that now. Anyway, so that's cool. Very neat that you've done that great service for everybody. And, you know, yeah, I worry. We talk a lot always with you about eating fish. And I worry, we over index on eating fish. But it is a way I mean, it's an industry, it's a way to sustainably use our natural resources. So I do get that. But for those who don't do it, I understand. And you can have this vegan catalyst caviar, if you want. But more important than all of this is this cringle situation. So we had all kinds of trouble with the Great Lakes doughnut of the year. This year is a disaster. It was all we had. Somebody nominated a cinnamon roll a very large cinnamon roll, so they were not horsing around with that. It was a very large cinnamon roll. But the thing is, is that it's not a donut, right? It doesn't have a torus shape. Not that don't need to be toroid I guess, I guess, because like I've been yay, which is definitely a doughnut but But anyway, this cinnamon roll is clearly a cinnamon roll. It was frighteningly large curiouser, and then there was also the kringles my understanding Titus is that in addition to playing Kris Kringle, you're off you're a Kringle eater tell me what is a Kringle man? I

Megan Gunn 29:17
can't. Kris Kringle that's awesome. I see it.

Stuart Carlton 29:22
Oh, yeah, it was on a billboard. Didn't you listen to the lake is that you're on Meghan anyway.

Megan Gunn 29:27
No.

Stuart Carlton 29:28
So what's the what's the deal with crinkles?

Titus Seilheimer 29:31
She doesn't listen to when you talk stir. Yeah, so crinkle crinkle actually is our state pastry maybe history your states do have Yeah, so Kringle it's a it's basically it's a Danish Kringle. It's basically this round. Danish. Generally kind of a big circle like imagine inner tube but it's a Danish covered and frosting and you know filled with like Apple cream cheese whatever kind of thing so

Stuart Carlton 30:04
not a donut clearly but but but

Titus Seilheimer 30:06
the right shape if you're really concerned about shape having a hole in the middle so

Stuart Carlton 30:12
it does have that well I don't know. We have to clearly we have to think about this for we just trusted our audience and that there was the key mistake see

Titus Seilheimer 30:19
that was your mistake. You can't trust your audience know especially when it is

Stuart Carlton 30:25
exactly alright but so the Kringle here I don't have it open. It's Uncle Uncle Benny. Uncle Mike. Yeah, I reached out to the Uncle Mike people that wouldn't take my calls. I tried to I guess I've got other things to do. But you've had an uncle Mike Kringle Is this correct?

Titus Seilheimer 30:44
I have you know I'm gonna say like Racine is is Kringle Central and Uncle Mike's is a peer Green Bay Area based for my money they're a better crinkle but you know, that's the thing that starts fights in Wisconsin. Oh,

Stuart Carlton 31:01
I wouldn't want to do that but how big How big so I almost I look to get an Uncle Mike Kringle because they'll ship them but it's $38 I spent a lot of that is because it's you know shipping fresh. You want to get there quick. They have to overnight it or whatever, because you don't want to five Dale Kringle. Yeah, but what how big is Kringle? Like from Uncle? So if I'm what am I getting for my $38 That's Uncle Mike's

Titus Seilheimer 31:23
you're getting, you know, about 1000 1000 servings. It's, it is as big as hair, you could wear it as a hat and it would like, you know, come down probably over years over. Yeah. And it's what Uncle Mike says they're very thick. So if you go to Owen H, or one of those other brands that you might actually see in in the store, which you know, tend to be a lot a lot thinner. You know, maybe an inch thick. So, yeah, oh, yeah.

Stuart Carlton 31:58
Oh, they are big. It looks kind of like a pretzel almost. So it's got a little V shaped like a classic pretzel. Yeah. Okay. Very cool. So crinkle worth going to Wisconsin for

Titus Seilheimer 32:07
Absolutely. I mean, and you know that salted caramel one. It's delicious. Kind of makes me sick when I eat it because I too much of it. But

Megan Gunn 32:17
yeah. What's your second favorite then if the cstart camel is your first favorite? I

Titus Seilheimer 32:23
gotta go with the cheese from Uncle Mike's. It is it's a very tasty filling. You know, it's all about the filling, I think and the frosting on top. But the turtle one's good to lots

Stuart Carlton 32:34
of ways to go. So made with actual turtles, or is it? Yes,

Titus Seilheimer 32:37
it's all snapping turtles. And it's delicious. All right, well, let's

Stuart Carlton 32:42
do this. It's time for the Great Lakes news.

Now it's time for the Great Lakes news. Here's your host, Stuart Carlton. Thank you for that Stewart Great Lakes Mills, and we're bringing it back. It's been a while story. We're going to three Great Lakes news stories. And we're gonna hear people talking about them. Story number one, the Great Lakes fishing decree is taking effect they re ratified the Great Lakes fishing decree. And it recently took effect. Just what is the Great Lakes fishing decree? Yeah.

Titus Seilheimer 33:17
So also also referred to as the consent decree, it's basically the agreement between the state of Michigan and the tribes about fishing in the Great Lakes for their in their tribal areas. So it's like a 20 year, a 20 year agreement that says, you know, how much can be harvested what what gears can be used where they can fish and, you know, took a lot of years to renegotiate. And but now this one is in place. It

Stuart Carlton 33:47
was approved by the Western US District Court for the Western District of Michigan. Why is it there? And why did they get the safer? I guess the whole Great Lakes area?

Titus Seilheimer 33:54
You know, it's related to treaties and treaty agreements. The first consent decree in 1985 was potentially court appointed i don't i don't really sure Yeah, I don't there's legal reasons Yes. His like yeah, that's that's the way to say it.

Stuart Carlton 34:10
So this way this has to be fisheries waivers are kind of throughout the area, though. What does the decree even say? Are you aware of like, what kind of stuff is in there? Do you know?

Titus Seilheimer 34:17
Yeah, so you know, because Michigan touches for the lakes is treaty areas are on Lake Michigan for for the state of Michigan, Lake Huron and then Lake Superior. So it's kind of touching on all of those you know, it seems like there was you know, some new new areas that these tribal commercial fishers could fish and if you in the story there you know, kind of reminding people to be on the lookout for nets and kind of new areas and yeah, so it's you know, it's all about you know, where people can fish and what they can fish for super

Stuart Carlton 34:55
complicated. The Great Lakes if that's what really brings to mind for me is, you know, we're dealing with Uh, two nations different indigenous populations, which are also nations and it shows you just something I didn't fully appreciate until I moved here, right just how complicated all of this is and then doing right by doing right by people who were displaced is really challenging to store number two smart buoys helped brace Great Lakes for environmental challenges. So Lake Erie is the first of the Great Lakes getting connected with a series of smart buoys, which is going to be spreading kind of throughout I think the Great Lakes as a smart these smarten as they in smart in the buoys. And so Lake Erie is kind of the first one that's part of this network. Megan, have you done? You've done a lot of work with our buoys, right?

Megan Gunn 35:42
I have most of the work that I've done, it's been rescuing them. But I want to know why they're making the buoys in Lake Erie smarter and that are like Lake Michigan was smarter are like missing one smart enough and then less superior than them.

Stuart Carlton 35:59
That's a good question. Just how smart are boys? And what does this mean, exactly? In terms of data and the Great Lakes?

Titus Seilheimer 36:03
Yeah, I you know, I think this is I think Lake Erie is kind of the testbed here for this, you know, newer technology and maybe being more interconnected between the buoys. And, you know, I think we can look forward to seeing smarter buoys I think our buoys are still pretty smart, you know, you can go on to the website, you can look at the data. So, you know, that's pretty awesome. But, you know, I think what, what they're doing here, you know, they're they're looking at the newer technology, and, you know, maybe it's more smaller buoys that are kind of interconnected and, you know, doing some really cool stuff.

Megan Gunn 36:42
Well, smaller buoy survived the wave action that are in the

Stuart Carlton 36:47
smaller buoy. Truly our newest buoy, it's smaller to and it's, yeah, and to he hasn't been hit yet, by Chicago, but but it's a good question. This is, so this is freeboard technology, which is run by Ebrahimi who is one of our partners and former teach me about the Great Lakes guest. Anyway, so yeah, well, it's interesting to see Titus, you use buoy data a lot. Is that something that comes up?

Titus Seilheimer 37:11
Yeah, I mean, I think we're, I'm in kind of this area that hasn't had a lot of buoys in the past. And now that we have a National Marine Sanctuary, they're actually putting in some, some buoys, they're partnering with UW Milwaukee to upgrade one to be, you know, more of a, you know, whether plus other things right now, they just have kind of, you know, the small buoys that can measure simulated wave height, you know, approximate wave height, and then they have some strings of temperature loggers that go down to the bottom. So, you know, I think those are kind of smaller buoys, you know, more affordable. And, you know, potentially interesting definitely hearing from our anglers around the area, you know, using this data. And, you know, so they have, you know, voting uses, and, you know, pretty neat to see

Stuart Carlton 38:05
that data is important. That's one point I want to make, like that's I mean, the big theme of this show is, it'll teach you about the release overall, the importance of data, the importance of monitoring, and if governments don't tend to do that, then it doesn't tend to get done. And it's really valuable in the long run. So that is good. Story number three. What's the repents now giant gold fix or menacing, giant goldfish fix up or menacing the Great Lakes and so the story here is that people have been releasing

Tim Campbell 38:43
Hello, hey, teach me about the Great Lakes crew. Tim Campbell.

Stuart Carlton 38:46
Wow. We talk, I guess, and instantly, instantly Timmy appears Tim appears out of nowhere, Tim. So you must have sensed a disturbance in the force as it were. Yeah, the

Tim Campbell 38:59
invasive species signal popped up on my wall over years, I knew I had to call

Titus Seilheimer 39:04
the shape of a goldfish. species to

Stuart Carlton 39:08
That was excellent. So tell us about cold fish. I guess goldfish? Well, people have been releasing pets, I guess, into the Great Lakes. And now they're tracking them. What is the deal with goldfish in the Great Lakes, Tim? So

Tim Campbell 39:19
I think we can just generally talk about pets in general. When people I mean with all sorts of pets, when people have some difficulty caring for their pet, they can't take care of it any longer. They maybe try to find it to do home you know, whatever. That's just really hard. And it gets harder with kind of the the more exotic or less for your pet is. So like dogs and cats pretty easy to find a new home for but when you start talking about fish, it's just tough to find a new home for things and so what can happen is that the easiest thing for somebody to do is to let their pet go and they can start you know convincing themselves that fluffy the goal Fish is going to have a better life out in Lake Ontario than they would somewhere else. Right? So releasing goldfish and pets in general has been a problem for a while. It's something we've been working to address through the Great Lakes secret network. But what's cool about this new paper in the Journal of Great Lakes research is that they actually tracked a population of goldfish to try to understand what behaviors so we're

Stuart Carlton 40:23
gonna we're gonna actually interview one of the authors of that paper coming up in a future episode. What so they're they're carp is that right? So this is we've been, we've been keeping our eye on the wrong invasive carp, I guess.

Tim Campbell 40:34
Yeah, I might defer to an actual Dr. Fish for some better detail on this. But yeah, they, they're closely related Prussian carp and crucian. Carp. So you know, they're generally small fish, although they can get pretty big, especially for a cold fish.

Titus Seilheimer 40:50
And they, they will, they will hybridize with common carp as well. So, you know, they're, they're closely enough related, they can do that. Yeah.

Tim Campbell 40:59
And I tend to think that they have the same kind of general impacts, they route around for vegetation, and they can out compete native species for food and space and just become really abundant.

Stuart Carlton 41:10
So are you well, you're a fish guy. Do you have an aquarium full of goldfish? Or are you would need a fish? What kind of fish in your aquarium?

Titus Seilheimer 41:21
Seward I don't have an aquarium. The Great Lakes are my aquarium. That's where I go to, you know, I think this this story is interesting. I actually, actually where it's like you can't see it on the you can't see it because you're listening. But there's my PhD diploma from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, where this study was from, and they were talking about the fishway. And that was actually there's this Cootes paradise Marsh, which was right adjacent to our campus. And, you know, this was 2022 years ago, when I started basta, and the fishway was in place, then it was really, for common carp, they were trying to remove the common carp. And basically sort all the fish keeping carp out and I guess now goldfish as well. So, you know, kind of a neat, long term management of the species to try to control it.

Megan Gunn 42:20
I think, like we're one of the problems is, is they think people think that fluffy, this like, two, three goldfish it's going to like, live in this big old lake being small, but they they expand, right? They get massive.

Stuart Carlton 42:34
I mean, the one article, I'll put the link in the show notes, talking about a bloater. Look at this thing. Yeah, but no, it's true is people don't think about right. They're like, what difference can one fish make? Right? Yeah, so I think it's a good point.

Titus Seilheimer 42:47
The only the only goldfish I ever caught was in Lake Ontario. It was. Well, in my, in my research, it was closer to Toronto. I think it was the credit river Marsh, but it was it wasn't this orange. It was more of a, you know, kind of a golden color that you'd see with a common carp. But definitely, you know, very round, and definitely not a common carp. Well,

Stuart Carlton 43:14
then So Tim, rather than throw them into the lake where they become invasive carp, what what are some options for people with with goldfish or other fish, pets, maybe even crustaceans or things like that, that they have as pets? What are some other options for what people should do with them?

Tim Campbell 43:30
Yeah, so pet owners have a lot of good options, especially here in the Great Lakes region for pets, they can no longer care for the habitat attitude program, the the hero release Zero program, run by different sea grant programs here in the Great Lakes have a good checklist of things that pet owners can do. Before you know they're left with no other options. And so you can do the easiest thing you can do is just check with your friends, you probably have a friend or somebody in your social network that would love to take care of your pet. If that doesn't work, you can check with a store. A lot of independent pet retailers have networks of people that are willing to rehome into pets that people can no longer care for. So it's always worth checking there. And then more and more nonprofits are popping up that kind of specialize in different pet species we work with one in Wisconsin Jnr Aquatic Animal Rescue and they can help rehome aquatic pets pretty much anywhere in the state. I think they host 20 different events a year. Different aquarium societies also have rehoming networks. And if you're left with no other options, you can always check with your local veterinarian and they might have some ideas too.

Megan Gunn 44:43
Like schools like K through 12 schools would be open to putting putting them in their classrooms like this seems a really great way to have them live another life with all kinds of different people looking at them and not and tapping on the on the glass.

Stuart Carlton 44:58
Reach out to your secret educator They might be able to help hook you up.

Tim Campbell 45:00
And that that's a great idea. And it's something when unlike previously funded organisms and trades projects, we discussed those things. And I think it just takes a motivated Sea Grant education or AI s specialist to help facilitate some of those things. And

Titus Seilheimer 45:17
you know, like, at the end of the school year, where did those go, because this as the recipient of three crayfish one year, at the end of the school year, you know, they may just end up in another home, but maybe they, maybe maybe it's a summer, summer residency for these coverage, and then go back.

Stuart Carlton 45:38
Yeah, could have been excellent. Well, that's the I think the awareness thing is important, because I think people just don't think about it, this is exactly what you said back and they think to put this little goldfish in there, and they don't know that one day fluffy is gonna be the size of Uncle Mike's crinkle.

Tim Campbell 45:53
And I think people also think too, that this fish is going to have a better life out whenever they release it. And most of the time, it doesn't, it gets eaten by something, it's not equipped to survive. And then if it does survive, it becomes invasive. So not great either.

Stuart Carlton 46:08
Not a great life. Alright, but now that you're here, we got other things to talk about. Alright. Great Lakes news is over blue, blue. Thank you glad to have the segment back. We'll do it again sometime. But we've already asked both y'all so many times about your sandwiches in your doughnuts in your special places, because y'all are periodic guests. So instead of that, we're gonna go straight to sandwich talk here, Tim, as you know, listeners, because you listened to our last episode a couple of weeks ago with the leak is Tim is the first ever leaky loser because he sent us a picture of this monstrosity. He nominated this. He tried to do it anonymously. But he's, I assume out of shame. And he tried to do that. And he sent in this picture of this thing, but it was at a Google Drive that had his name on it. So I of course, a person of integrity called him out on this. And so what is this thing? Tim? I'll put a link in the show note. I'm trying to find the link right here. Here it is. What is this, Tim? And where did you have it?

Tim Campbell 47:09
First, I would like to stand behind my sandwich choices. And I got an adventurous eating. So it was good. I don't think I'd ever eat it again. Because I feel like there are simpler ways to achieve this effect. But what it is, yeah,

Stuart Carlton 47:25
let's describe it so that the listener doesn't know what if they're not know they're driving. So hopefully they've clicked on the show notes. So they've been clicked on this image. And if they weren't driving clicked on it, they have crashed and died. So describe this thing to us, please.

Tim Campbell 47:41
So I'm going to paint a delicious picture for you listen listener. So just it's a standard hot dog, right and standard button. Nothing too exciting. But there is macaroni and cheese on it like standard yellow mac and cheese and Froot Loops. And so kind of my thing when I go. My thing is when I go to a baseball game, I like to try to find the weirdest thing to eat at the ballpark. And at the Cleveland guardians ballpark. Where I was during Sea Grant week. This was the weirdest thing at the ballpark. So decided to try it out.

Stuart Carlton 48:16
I was there anyway, which game did you go to? Was it the one where both managers got thrown out and on one play?

Tim Campbell 48:23
I don't know. We might have been a different game. I don't remember what they

Stuart Carlton 48:26
had paid on the homestead. I was at that thing. But yeah, no. Baseball game attended. So yeah, there was a big argument. And both managers got thrown out on the single it was the greatest sporting event I've seen in my whole life. Maybe

Titus Seilheimer 48:40
they were actually arguing about this hotdog. Yeah.

Stuart Carlton 48:44
I'll put a link in the show notes to the argument if we keep it in, although it's kind of profane. Okay, so you're at the game. Yeah, it was a secret week. I was at a baseball game too. It's super fun to see the Guardians versus the angels back when they had Shohei. Otani. Anyway, the point is, is you decided to order this disgusting thing. What was it called? And can you describe the taste? So it seems there's a lot of textures going on? Yeah, a lot of flavors going on. Yeah. You

Tim Campbell 49:08
know, honestly, I don't remember the name of it. It's helpful. I could Google it. Really? Oh,

Stuart Carlton 49:13
that's okay. Right. Thank you. No one needs to know the name. It's notable that it erased from your mind, right?

Tim Campbell 49:18
Yeah. And my guess is that it only existed for one season. Okay, but yeah, like it was a cheesy hot dog with some crunch on it. But instead of it being like a salty crunch, it was a sweet crunch. Right? Well, I mean, I've I've had a hot dog before with some cheese on it and like some fried onions. Yeah. So it felt kinda like that. Except it's Froot Loops Froot Loops and Mac like unnecessarily over the top. But you know, I'm happy I did it. Right. Like it was

Titus Seilheimer 49:49
the sweet and savory mix was perfect. Yes.

Stuart Carlton 49:52
Well, you know what, next time I go to a guardians game, I am relatively certain that I will not get

Tim Campbell 49:59
it. Can I recommend though the BBQ pork and coleslaw waffle cone? That was delicious, so do that.

Megan Gunn 50:06
I don't eat meat and that does sound good

Stuart Carlton 50:23
Well, there we go. There is our linkys follow up. Tim, if people want to find out more about what you're eating or what you're doing, where should they go?

Tim Campbell 50:32
I guess, Twitter. I don't know. Nowhere. I don't really know who's there anymore. LinkedIn. Yeah, they're either. All right. I mean, email, sent

Stuart Carlton 50:42
him an email. Yeah, you look it up yourself. I'm not gonna say it out loud. You're still fairly active. Where can people go? I mean, in addition, we've asked Dr. Fish, ask Dr. fish.com. Where else can they go to find out more about what you're doing?

Titus Seilheimer 50:54
Yeah, I mean, you can follow me at Dr. Fish SG at whatever social you're interested in. If that's Instagram, or blue sky. We got some videos on YouTube. And hey, send me an email at Scottson Sea Grant. Fantastic. All right.

Megan Gunn 51:13
Teach me about the Great Lakes is brought to you by the Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant. We encourage you to check out the cool stuff we do it I see grant.org and i Li Twitter and other social media

Stuart Carlton 51:25
or senior producers Carolyn Foley and teach me about the Great Lakes is produced by Meghan Gunn and Rini miles Ethan Chitty is our associate producer and fixer are super fun podcast. Our work is by Joel Davenport and the show is edited by the amazing Sandra Swoboda welcome, Sandy. Thank you so much. Assuming the paperwork goes through.

Megan Gunn 51:47
You have a question or comment about the show, please email us to teach me about the Great Lake or leave a message on our hotline at 7654 I NC or 447 You can also follow us on Twitter at Great Lakes but like like really what's the point you're listening to?

Unknown Speaker 52:07
On

Transcribed by https://otter.ai