Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes, teach me about the Great Lakes. Welcome back, everybody to teach me about the Great Lakes and exactly monthly podcast in which I get people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. And this month, I am joined as always by nobody. We had some technical difficulties, and yada yada yada. It's a solo show in terms of CO hosts. But I'm really excited to be joined by Dr. Brian Roth, he is an eighth theologist. And the reason I'm excited is I started my career as an MC theologist back at the University of Georgia, way back in longer ago than I care to admit 2001 I started my master's degree there. And so I haven't gotten to nerd out on fish much lately. So I'm excited to do that here. He's going to talk to us about the fishy studies and what we can learn from them all about the Great Lakes. So since I don't have anybody to do inane banter with or make candidate jokes, or what have you, let's just go straight to the interview after this theme.

Okay, and our guest today is Dr. Brian Roth. He's an associate professor at the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife at Michigan State. Brian, how are you doing today?

Dr. Brian Roth 1:15
I'm doing great. Thank you.

Stuart Carlton 1:16
Oh, thank you so much for coming. I'm really excited to learn about the fish of the Great Lakes and what we can learn from them about the Great Lakes in general. But let's start big picture first with your background. I think you're from Seattle. Is that right? So how did you end up in the Great Lakes area?

Dr. Brian Roth 1:29
Yeah, well, it's kind of a long journey. I was born and raised in Seattle, went to University of Washington for my undergrad, and then went, spent some time in Georgia as a after my undergraduate, spent some time in Wisconsin doing my masters and PhD and I did my postdoc down at LSU. And then came up to Michigan. I missed the Midwest.

Stuart Carlton 1:54
Miss the Midwest. There you go. Yeah. Well, now you're here. Like, in the summers at LSU. You missed the Midwest, and in the winters, you probably Miss Georgia. So So you study fish, right? What is it about fish that you study? Because that can be a whole variety of things. Right? What do you what do you look at when you're talking about fish?

Dr. Brian Roth 2:12
Absolutely. So I'm primarily a fish ecologist. So I studied the interrelations between fish in the environment and the effect of the environment on fish. So I really like to look at how they interact with their environment. And in particular, I really like predatory fishes. So I like those top predators that are feeding on smaller fishes or whatever else.

Stuart Carlton 2:33
Yeah. So in the Great Lakes, what are we talking about there? As I'd like to salmon in the trout, I don't know what are the big predators in the Great Lakes.

Dr. Brian Roth 2:38
Yeah, salmon and trout are the ones that most people think of. But you also can consider things like walleye as a top predator. And I haven't yet gotten into things like small mouth bass and northern pike. But someday maybe so.

Stuart Carlton 2:52
So you're looking at native and non natives are right because they're all the salmon helped me understand salmon in the Great Lakes and then we'll work our way around or all of those introducers just in Lake Michigan. What's the what's the deal with those?

Dr. Brian Roth 3:03
Yeah, so all the salmon that you traditionally call salmon are introduced. So that includes Chinook salmon, coho salmon, Pink Salmon, as well as Atlantic salmon in places like Lake Michigan and Huron. However, there are native trout species that includes the lake trout and brook trout, which are found in more inland waters, but there is kind of a lake going strain up in Lake Superior called the coastal brook trout

Stuart Carlton 3:34
coaster. Okay. And so those are so true. And symbols are same family but different geniuses or genius, Gene, generic, generic, generic. It's coming back. Is that right?

Dr. Brian Roth 3:45
That is That is correct. So all the Pacific salmon and that includes actually rainbow trout. They belong to a genus called it's kind of a mouthful. It's called Anchor incus. And they Yeah, and they all belong to a group of fish whose native ranges the Pacific coast. So some of them range just, you know, mostly around from Northern California over to come check cut Peninsula in Russia. Okay.

Stuart Carlton 4:13
And did they introduce those just as a fishery or do you know why? Why was it the DNR is or who did those?

Dr. Brian Roth 4:19
Yeah, guy named Howard Tanner. Well, more than 50 years ago now found here I've done a great lakes that were pretty impaired. So lake trout had really declined due to invasions of sea lamprey, as well as overfishing. And there really wasn't anything to attract recreational anglers to the Great Lakes. In addition, at the time, an invasive species called Ayleid had gone a muck in the Great Lakes and were dying in mass and washing up on beaches and things like that. So nowadays, we Go to South Haven or you know Muskegon and the beaches are beautiful and Sandy, but you can imagine a time when those were covered, literally covered in dead fish. Um, so that would have been a good time to buy some property. But, yeah, and so for one, there was no recreational opportunities are relatively few. And two there is this invasive fish that was pretty much the perfect size for Pacific salmon. So Howard Tanner dumped Pacific salmon, notably coho at first and then Chinook later into the Great Lakes. And what do you know, they came back and people started catching them in a recreational fishery was born. And as a really positive side effect. They also controlled LA.

Stuart Carlton 5:48
I see. So we had native, I think I got this, let me get let me make sure I got the story, right. So we had a native lake trout population in the Great Lakes. And in the sea lamprey came in maybe introduced by a chips or something. And the sea lamprey, which are these big snake like things, if you haven't seen them, I saw one on a salmon one set at Lake Superior State, and they're on their webcam, there was like a seal. And so there's a sea lamprey, and they would they would latch onto the trout. And this over time, like to trail populations started crashing. And then we also had these ale wives that got here somehow. And so without trout, or whatever it EPL wives do was just sort of go nuts, right? And muck it up peaches and whatever. And so they brought in this here, this is like the old lady who swallowed the fly to a certain extent that was. But But I guess, so now we have a pretty good salmon fishery, for good or bad, I guess. I mean, some nice clean beaches, I guess it's kind of trade off. So whether or not that's good, I suppose?

Dr. Brian Roth 6:44
Oh, no, it definitely has been overall very, very positive. The current recreational fishery in the state of Michigan as well as in other states around the Great Lakes, it's a multi billion dollar industry. In addition, you know, those salmon really put a hurt on the ill wife population. So we don't have those nasty diass That that would wash up on beaches. And so overall, it's been a real boom, the kind of side the side effect of that is that now there's an industry built around these recreational fishes that are non native, right. So there are lots of you go to the South Haven, or Grand Haven or Ludington. And there are lots and lots of charter boats that will go out for salmon. Right. And so now, those fisheries are pretty much dependent on Pacific salmon. And so, you know, we're kind of, in some ways stuck, but it is overall very beneficial. And that, you know, there's only emerging fisheries for our native species, and there's more established fisheries are for non native species, okay.

Stuart Carlton 7:59
But you also study other predators. So does like the all the salmon is thriving salmon fishery, does it interfere with like the walleye and other things? Are they just in totally different areas?

Dr. Brian Roth 8:09
Yeah, they tend to be in different areas. So most of the salmon fisheries occur in two locations, so one is offshore. So you have to get in a relatively big boat or risk your life and a smaller one to get out to the main basin of Lake Michigan, in particular for the Pacific salmon, but also lake here on Lake Ontario, etc. And whereas for walleye, they tend to inhabit warmer, shallower waters, for the most part. And so they're more prevalent in places like Green Bay, Saginaw Bay, Western Lake theory. And so that, you know, occasionally there is some overlap, but for the most part, they're pretty separate.

Stuart Carlton 8:49
Okay. Okay. And so you started these predators and how they interact with their different prey organisms and things like that. But what is the what is the importance of studying those interactions? I mean, it's cool. Predators are cool. I love big fish, right. But But is there what can we learn from that? They can kind of teach us about the Great Lakes, I suppose.

Dr. Brian Roth 9:07
Yeah, a lot, really. So we've entered into kind of a new time in the Great Lakes, believe it or not, so we had additional invasions after the ones that you mentioned sea lamprey, Li, we've had a number of further invasions, and they've continued to change the Great Lakes. And two of those that have had really dramatic effects are zebra mussels and quagga mussels, dry Senate muscles, as well as Round Goby. And Round Goby, in particular, became really been into and zebra the dry scented muscles really changed the productivity of the Great Lakes. So what I mean by that is in places that used to be green, or now clear. And so there's this change in the Great Lakes, both to the forage base as well as the water clarity that had kind of, in some cases, unknown effects, but others such as in Lake Huron, airwave completely disappeared. Because of the water clarity. We don't necessarily know there's, there's a lot of different hypotheses as to why it always collapsed and Lake Huron, there's still a few around, but it's nowhere near what it used to be. And it's nowhere near even what Lake Michigan is. And so there's a number of different hypotheses. One of the dominant ones is that dry, scented mussels reduce productivity a lot, and there was not enough food. And one of the consequences of that is that Chinook salmon, which depend on airways, they also collapsed. So there are very, very few Chinook salmon in Lake Huron anymore, whereas before there is a thriving fishery. And so one of the things that, you know, my work in forums is a how, how are these predatory fishes? succeed or not? In a time where there's no Airlife? Right, or very few airwave? How do they make a living? And what we're thinking is that Lake Michigan has also suffered kind of a fairly steep decline in real life abundances. But it's not to the level of Lake Huron yet. But there's concern that Lake Michigan could be headed the same direction as Lake Huron. And so learning about what's happening in both Lake Huron and Lake Michigan, they kind of inform each other, right? So studying Lake you're on tells us how predators survive in in a lake without airway, we don't know necessarily what that's like anymore. It's been too long since since that occurred. So they inform each other. And in addition, they understanding what those predators are consuming, helps us to guide stocking decision. So Pacific salmon, in particular, their populations are heavily supported by management agencies stocking, right. In addition, lake trout are also heavily stocked. However, you can imagine a situation whereas if we put as many fish as we possibly could, in as many Chinook salmon as many lake trout as we possibly could, into a lake, they'd run out of food, okay. And so we don't want to do that. So we need to try to focus on balancing predator and pray. And my study directly informs that balance calculation.

Stuart Carlton 12:29
And so what goes into trying to understand that calculation, do you just sort of throw a bunch of fish out there, you stalk a bunch of fish? And then you're like population counts? And kind of treat it like an experiment? Or what is the deal there?

Dr. Brian Roth 12:40
It's not necessarily yes and no. So it's adaptive management, right? So there are all sorts of factors that we can't control that can affect the fish populations, weather is one climate is another harvest, recreational harvest, tribal harvest, all those kind of go into calculations. Sure, as well as whether or not you know, a population or a species is able to produce young. Right. So that's, that's those are some of the bigger calculations that go in. So and we can have some pretty good estimates of how many fish are actually in the lake, how many predator species or individuals of various predator species are in the lake. But there's always uncertainty around that, right? Like, we can't take every single individual out of the lake. So there are estimates, right, and so what management agencies try to do is enter those estimates into into computer models. And a big kind of linkage between those predator and prey populations, is what the predators are eating. Right? Because they are going to put, they're the primary source of mortality for those prey fish. And so that's where my study in particular, the predator data study comes into play.

Stuart Carlton 14:08
I see. So you look at what they're eating, and then you use that to infer information about how the populations interact with each other. So how do you figure out what they're eating?

Dr. Brian Roth 14:19
Yeah, so it's kind of gross, but so we go to tournaments as well as we work with a number of partners so we work with the United States Geological Survey, United States, fish and fish and wildlife service, and various DNR is as well as sea grant to try to get recreational anglers to donate the stomach's of their catch for the day. Or we take the stomachs out of the fish that people bring back to the duct so us MSU as well as our partners, go to tournaments, fishing tournaments, and ask people to donate stomachs or take them out ourselves. We bring went back to the lab and open them up and see what's inside. And so there are times where people do not like like walking by my lap, because it just smells like dead fish.

Stuart Carlton 15:12
Just smells like dead fish. Smells like

Dr. Brian Roth 15:15
science to me to be honest.

Stuart Carlton 15:18
So yeah, I remember growing up now that I think about it, I used to I grew up in New Orleans, and I go fishing with my father a lot when we catch trout, sea trout there, which are not the same as what we're talking about here. But one thing we were cleaning I missed, he would always cut open and show me like the shrimp that we had caught them on, and maybe some other you could see crabs in there sometimes or whatever last episode, which everybody should go check out. Teach me about the great lakes.com/twelve We interviewed an entomologist, Jan Super housekeys His name. And so he talked about like identifying all these little things. So when you get little stuff in there, you know if you get like an ale wife, you can identify Neolife pretty quickly in the gut of a fish, I would think but how do you do the smaller stuff is a microscope worker?

Dr. Brian Roth 15:56
Yeah, so there's a lot of microscope work. And as you you might not think about this, but yeah, you think about a Chinook salmon eating an eel life. And what you expect is to open up the Chinook salmon and know here's a perfectly preserved li but as you know, things, I mean, the whole purpose of the stomach is to turn those perfectly preserved things into not so preserved things right. So oftentimes, we'll get this like bones maybe a tail, a tail, tail, like, yeah, exactly it and that's why, you know, it smells like science in my lab. Right? But yeah, we go down. We also look at bugs. So rainbow trout, tend to eat a lot of bugs. Okay, a lot of bugs. And so we'll go down to order, which is not super far if you're an entomologist.

Stuart Carlton 16:48
Kingdom, phylum, class order, then family, genus and species, right. And I'm sure now that's where I learned like seventh grade, I assume now it's changed. But there's that roughly.

Dr. Brian Roth 16:58
Yeah, that's roughly it. So you know, we want to know if it's a mayfly, right, or dragonfly or a beetle, you know, something along those lines. But after that it you know, we don't vote. Yeah, for bugs for fish, we go down to species.

Stuart Carlton 17:14
So one thing you talked about is something is an adaptive management. What you're doing is part of an adaptive management program. Can you tell me a little bit about what what is adaptive management? I know what it is like, in theory, because I learned about it in, you know, during my Master's and PhD program, but I haven't really studied how it works in practice. So the idea is that you're treating fisheries management, kind of like an experiment. Is that right?

Dr. Brian Roth 17:35
That is correct, yes. So you do an experiment where you have a management action that you implement, and then you study the system, you obtain information from that experiment. So you have to have kind of critical indicators of what you're looking for. And then you adjust. And so it's adaptive, right? So you have to be willing to make some mistakes. I think our management agencies around the Great Lakes have been doing an unbelievable job to deal with the circumstances of a highly dynamic system, the Great Lakes, we oftentimes look out across the lake and think that they're fairly static, but they things are always changing there. And so your managers have the really tough job of trying to make the public happy. But also making sure that those lakes sustain their ecosystem function. For generations. We don't want those to go away. We don't want to ruin the Great Lakes, right? We want to keep them as pristine and as healthy as possible. So it's a really tough job. And I think that they're doing an unbelievable job. And you say

Stuart Carlton 18:47
sorry, dynamic, because I mean, there's so many people living in the area, and so much sort of anthropogenic change, with all these invasive species interacting with each other and things like that. It's just a lot changing at once. Interesting. And so when you say ecosystem function, you just mean like, the productivity of the ecosystem, you know, keeping things working? Well? Is that kind of what you're getting out there?

Dr. Brian Roth 19:08
Yeah, so ecosystem function can be defined in a lot of different ways, right? So one of the things that we're particularly focused on here at MSU is not just the ecosystem for ecosystem sake, right? Like we are really interested in how people interact with ecosystems, right? And people are the things that we focus on. So even though I study fish guts, right, this has to do with management of the fishery, which deals with people. And so one of the things one function of the Great Lakes one ecosystem function is provision of clean water. Sure. So there are millions of people around the Great Lakes whose drinking water comes from the Great Lakes. We and we can see when that breaks down like in Toledo A few years ago, when Lake Erie had a huge algae bloom, toxins got into their drinking water. And so that is one really important ecosystem function. Another one is fisheries. And so there are lots and lots of people that either rely on fisheries for their livelihood. And this is not just charter boat captains, right? Like there are lots of indigenous groups that rely on those fish for sustenance. And so those ecosystem functions are really important.

Stuart Carlton 20:36
This is something I've been thinking about a lot a lot lately is like, what I really admire about you is like you, you know, there is what you nerd out on, like, you nerd out on fish guts. Well, maybe I don't admire that about you, but I'm impressed. But But then you're taking it. So something I'm learning through this podcast, frankly, is that you find people who nerd out on something, but then they it serves as much broader purpose. Right. And so here, like you're studying the smell of science, and doing so to help with, you know, large human scale problems, whether it's, you know, people recreating and consuming fish, or recreating on with or consuming fish, or whether it's water quality issues, and things like that. And so, so here you are doing the thing that really are a thing that really interests you in studying fish guts, but, but being part of that bigger picture, and I think I've been really impressed by people who do that. And I think that's really interesting.

Dr. Brian Roth 21:26
Yeah, thanks. Yeah. It's certainly part of my DNA, you know, that's something that I really care about is, yes, I love fish, right. Like, that's why I got into this field. But I also understand that, you know, I am a recreational angler, I want my kids to be recreational anglers. And in order for them to get excited about there has to be fish. There has to be fish for them to catch. And so I am very much concerned about the sustainability of fish, not just for fish sake, but for for human use, quite frankly,

Stuart Carlton 22:03
that makes sense. So let's talk more about some of these other invasive species that we've looked at Lex, I have a question. Let me go back. So you're talking to how much cleaner the water is now. And this is something I've heard somebody mentioned to me before. So I want to get your opinion on this. Is the water in Lake Michigan, maybe beyond? I just know about Lake Michigan? Is it too clean now?

Dr. Brian Roth 22:22
It could be I think that's yet to be determined, quite frankly. Yeah, productivity. So the amount of algae produced by phytoplankton in the Great Lakes. This is not my area of expertise, but you know, has been reducing and not only that, it's been going down. But in addition, what when the time of year that we see algae blooms has also been changing. Okay. And that has concerning effects for things that I care about young fish, right. So historically, there's a large bloom of phytoplankton called diatoms and spring. And that has been going down and down and down over the years such that now it's more in the fall, which is, which is really odd. But the thing is that early diatom bloom fed zooplankton, which in turn fed young fish. And so if those diatom blooms are shifting in time and intensity, it could affect our fisheries. Okay,

Stuart Carlton 23:31
that makes sense. Okay, now let's jump into some of the other invasives briefly. So you also do some work with all the different Hold on let me pronounce it the way that I'm supposed to up here. Crayfish, you do work with the different crayfish, which I think are relatives of crawfish. But so tell me about the crayfish that you work on?

Dr. Brian Roth 23:51
Yeah, so I'm kind of a weird scientist and I liked both fish and crayfish. As a kid, I used to go down to the lake. And if I wasn't fishing, I was hunting for crayfish, or as I call them over in Seattle crawdads. And so one of the non native species, Michigan has currently two non native species of crayfish. One is the rusty crayfish which many people have heard about. They're kind of brownish burgundy species with a big kind of rust colored spot on their side, and they're in a lot of different places in Michigan, so many people have seen or heard of those. However, there's a new one that we found in the state that we confirmed in the state for the first time in 2017. It's called the Red swamp crayfish. And that is in New Orleans when you would have crawfish boil, that's the one that's what you would eat. That's absolutely, absolutely. And so as you know, in Louisiana, you can go to a gas station or whatever and buy a 50 pound sack of crawfish. As it turns out, you can have those chips pretty much anywhere in the United States, at least you used to be able to. It's now prohibited in several states, because they've been getting invasions of these things. Now, it's not a species that we would typically think of as being capable of surviving in Michigan. And for many years, I was like, they'll never get here because it's too cold, right. But as it turns out, they're invasive, almost all over the world, including in cold water locations, or cold weather locations. So northern Germany, Poland, they're in Seattle, they're in Japan, they're in China, they're, I mean, they've gone all over the world. And sure enough, in 2017, they showed up here in two different locations, one in South West Michigan, and another and several locations in Southeast Michigan. And we think that this is almost entirely due to people purchasing sacks of crawfish having a boil and a couple of them get set free or get loose, or whatever the case,

Stuart Carlton 26:06
the case your kids put it, we know exactly what it is. It's the little kids who have crawfish, right, or crayfish races and or you put them in the pond. I mean, that's, you know, that's unfortunate. But it's yeah, the vector to me seems pretty obvious. Yeah, exotic species aren't necessarily invasive, but they can't be. And so invasive means it like goes out. And it has, it fills an ecological niche that isn't otherwise filled, or it takes over for something and forces out the native species. Right. Close enough. Yeah. And so these they do that, or they take over for native crayfish or something else.

Dr. Brian Roth 26:37
Yeah. So that's something that we're setting right now. We we don't know. Okay, to be honest with you. And like I said, we first found this thing, and July of 2017. And my research group has worked very closely with the Michigan DNR on this. And we for the first year and a half, we're kind of in panic mode, where we were just trying to figure out where these things were. And so we did a lot of crayfish trapping and the the ecosystems that we were studying are not the kinds that ecologist traditionally look at. So we had done a survey of 900 locations around the state looking for these things, but we focused on small streams, in pretty places. And as it turns out, these things like kind of yucky places, so retention, ponds, hotels, golf course ponds. Occasionally a lake, there is one natural lake that is invaded. But for the most part, it's these kind of really, really small water bodies that are in places that ecologists tend not to go. So so we are really in kind of fact finding and distribution finding mode. And but we're moving forward. And one of the things that we've noticed is that these things are living in places where you don't necessarily think that there are crayfish, but there are. So there are a couple native species that will live in some of these ponds, particularly if they're connected to a stream. And one of the things that we've been trying to document is, you know, are the native species coming back when we are removing these red swamp crayfish? And we'll find out? We don't know. But certainly, we're currently taking the precautionary approach by just every red swamp that we catch. We are killing and taking them out at the moment.

Stuart Carlton 28:41
Interesting. Well, I think we you know, Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant, we've recently started with with you and some other people, the invasive crayfish collaborative. And I think we're gonna do like a whole episode on this issue at some point. And so we would love to have you back, you know, maybe this fall maybe the coming spring or something like that, to talk about this in detail, because I think it's a important to be really interesting, both in terms of the questions you're talking about, like what do we know about their evasion, there's a lot of sort of ecologically interesting questions. And then the broader issues too, because invasive species are so such an important human dimensions type question. And as someone who studies human dimensions, I find it to be fascinating. Yeah, just little advice to people. They'll shrimper better. Like, you know, I grew up in Louisiana whole life that crayfish or fights or crawfish are fun. You get your boil, you know, you suck the heads. They're spicy. And that's fun. But But honestly, shrimp are better. So just go with shrimp. And when you're in Louisiana have a crawfish or two.

Dr. Brian Roth 29:31
You know, as a scientist, I consider eating crayfish to be energetically deficient process. And so what you have to do is make up for those calories that you're burning, peeling those things by drinking lots and lots of beer. Yep, yeah, it's it's really just a beer.

Stuart Carlton 29:47
It's a beer in corn delivery mechanism. That's it. That's it.

Dr. Brian Roth 29:53
They're salty. You need to quench your thirst. I agree. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 29:56
I completely agree. Well, this is really interesting, Brian. I Thank you so much. But that's actually not why we brought you on teach me about the Great Lakes we brought you on teach me about the Great Lakes to ask you these two questions. And this one is kind of irrelevant. We're shifting now. If you could choose a type of great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, but only one which would you choose

Dr. Brian Roth 30:16
a sandwich always as long as it's like corned beef with mustard purchased from somewhere in Chicago.

Stuart Carlton 30:23
There we go. Okay, so that's just my next question. And then I have something I want to throw out there but so where so so we don't go to get a great sandwich in East Lansing go to Chicago where I go plenty and get a corned beef and mustard sandwich.

Dr. Brian Roth 30:35
This corned beef it'll be about six or seven inches high. Oh my. Oh, yeah. Oh, so good.

Stuart Carlton 30:42
So yeah, you're waiting get to talk about obesity. Have you worked with goby? So I'm gonna throw my idea. This is my business idea of secret doesn't work out. And that's, you know, the hotdog stands like in Chicago, or in New Orleans, like carts they had they had a lucky dog was the big one. Right? So when I want to do gobies are like hot dog shaped, aren't they? So I'm tossing this out there go be dog. What do you think like you just slap it on a bone. It's got the right shape the buns are already made. Sell them on the street.

Dr. Brian Roth 31:09
Good luck with that. Good

Stuart Carlton 31:10
luck with that. A lot of takers yet the thing is, it's like this is what you know what your brilliant idea, right? Is that?

Dr. Brian Roth 31:18
It's brilliant. Yes. Well, you know, they tried to really market Asian carps for food. And I've actually eaten it on the grill. And it's fantastic. It tastes really good. And if they couldn't make that work, I don't know about gobies, they have a lot, a lot of real big bones believe

Stuart Carlton 31:38
big bones. You have to fry it. That's all. No, I know what's gonna be good. I know. It's gonna be good. We just have to get there. Great. And then our second question is, we like to end with, you know, asking for a little bit of life advice from our guests that you may have. For our listeners, it could be big or little serious or silly. You know, some people have quoted Rue Paul, other people have, you know, given the advice that they give to kids, whatever you think is we just like to leave somebody with a little bit of that.

Dr. Brian Roth 32:05
Yeah. For me, it's always follow your passion. That is my number one advice. We work too hard in life, not to really do it. We like I'm really, really blessed to be able to do something that I really like. And the only reason why I'm able to do this because I had to bust my tail to get to where I am. But if I was not passionate about it doing that would have been miserable. So I always say follow your passion.

Stuart Carlton 32:35
Excellent. Well, thank you for that. Dr. Brian Roth, Associate Professor at Department of Fisheries wildlife at the Michigan State University. Thank you so much. Where can people find you? If they want to seek you out website social media? What works?

Dr. Brian Roth 32:47
Yeah, I'm I'm actually on Twitter. And so my handle is it p Prof. Which is a mouthful. It's ich th EY PR o f. Excellent. That's my handle. And on Facebook, if you want to or interested in the predatory diet study, we actually have a Facebook page. It's one word here on Michigan diet study here on

Stuart Carlton 33:09
Michigan diet study. Yep. All right, we'll put links to those in the show notes, which you can find by looking down at your phone right now, or by going to teach me about the great lakes.com/thirteen One three because this is episode 13. Brian, thank you so much for coming on and teaching us all about the Great Lakes. Yeah,

Dr. Brian Roth 33:28
thanks for having me it was fine.

Stuart Carlton 33:47
That was really great. We're so lucky to be able to talk to so many smart and hardworking people and just learn a lot. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you want to subscribe please do subscribe. If you want to follow us on Twitter. You can look at i l i n Sea Grant for Illinois, Indiana Sea Grant and look down at your show notes for links to more that we're doing on more of the work that we're doing on a basis VCs and invasive crayfish in particular. And look forward to that special episode coming up later this fall maybe in the spring depending on how things go. And until then, everybody take care Thank you. Tell all your friends about us and keep greatin those lakes! *Theme song*