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Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes John, welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice ask people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I work with Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant and I'm so happy today to be joined by Irene Miles, Renie. How are you?

Renie Miles 0:23
I'm doing well. Thank you for a Tuesday. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 0:26
yeah, it is a Tuesday. And it's actually supposed to warm up today. So let's get in the 50s. But I have a confession to make. I spent about half of the last episode complaining that we don't get any snow here in West Lafayette. And the reason I did that is because we don't get any snow here and Lafayette myself yet, but like eight minutes after we stopped recording, we got a foot and a half of snow over the course of two days. So Mia culpa. mea maxima culpa on that,

Renie Miles 0:49
either that or you're just a man with with the power,

Stuart Carlton 0:53
maybe so but what a stupid way to abuse it, right? There's so many things I could have done. But I said, we got three snow days in a row, which was super fun, actually super fun, but I'm still recovering. One snow day is plenty for me. Anyway, I'm really excited though. Because we're gonna do something a little bit different, as you know, rainy, I love segments. All the whole reason we do this is so we can have segments. And one day one evening, shall we say, without going into all the details, I thought of a segment that we should have. And that segment as I realized I have a lot of occasional smart questions about the Great Lakes. But really what I have are less smart questions about the Great Lakes. And that will take us to this week's this month, this episode's segment. And like all good segments, this one starts with a theme song, ask a stupid question and get a smart answer. It's a great way to learn about the Great Lakes. Really excited to be joined by Professor John Jansen. He's the School of Freshwater Sciences at the University of Milwaukee and Wisconsin. And I realized that I have a very stupid question that I want to ask as a way of background, you know that gobies are really huge in Eastern Europe. People love to I mean, the gobies themselves are, you know, normal size, but people love to eat gobies in Eastern Europe and I heard this from Hank Vander Blue, the lifetime award winner, and that made me super pumped. And so I've had this dream. As longtime listeners know of starting a Goby dog business in the Chicagoland area. You know, like a little cart. It's a little cart. You get buns, steamed buns, you plop a Gobi down in there, but some you know, the little pickled whatever's some celery salt and sell them yeah, no mustard if it's Chicago. Yeah, yeah. And most people have hated all over my dream. No

Renie Miles 2:33
ketchup. I need to fix that. No,

Stuart Carlton 2:35
no ketchup. There we go. Quinn. This is the first edit point. Go back. We know what you meant. Rini mustard. Okay, no ketchup get arrested. But so here's my question for you. So Professor John Janssen. He's a freshwater ecologist is published a lot with his colleagues on gobies. And so I was wondering, so gopis are an invasive species around goby and specific in the Great Lakes. And so here's my question for you How many Goby dogs would I have to sell in order to make a dent in the Great Lakes Gobi population?

Dr. John Janssen 3:04
Obviously just one you didn't specify the size of the dent

Stuart Carlton 3:10
I should have said a sizable dent or put some some maybe a confidence bounds on our dent? Do we know do we know? So people love to talk about eating endangered or invasive species? That's like talking about the endangered species but that's a different topic. But my deal is I don't think there's ever been an invasive species that we've eaten our way out of and so you know, what makes a dent but do we have any idea how many gobies there are in the Great Lakes at all?

Dr. John Janssen 3:34
Three to have any idea how many people that are in the United States do a census but we know it's an inaccurate in the same thing for they always say when they report unemployment statistics. It's like there's a caveat because people we aren't counting we don't come with us. So no, we don't and it's it's a much harder thing to try to calculate. But if you fund me for the rest of my career, I will make the attempt

Stuart Carlton 4:03
you could have you could have eight cents per Goby dog so that'll be a significant portion of the profit and that's good.

Dr. John Janssen 4:09
How am I able to retire in a month?

Stuart Carlton 4:11
I think so. I think so. Until apparently they're also loaded with toxins and so heavy metals heavy metals or what have you. So it's kind of eat it twice and regret it for the rest of your life do I think

Dr. John Janssen 4:22
so by the way in their native ran waxy etc, that area? They'll get large in Right, right. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. You might set up your business there.

Renie Miles 4:35
Is that because they're better suited for that environment?

Dr. John Janssen 4:37
Well, that's sort of like maybe a self evident question. Excuse me.

Stuart Carlton 4:43
So So is it so what is it that allows them to get bigger I guess that's the way to phrase it. Is it is it the food sources over? Where do you start was at the bulk? I missed? What you said the Black Sea The Black Sea? Is it the food there is more nutritious? Are there less competition what is the white why do they get bigger there you know

Dr. John Janssen 5:00
There's something like over 1000 species of gobies, it's, it's a huge family, maybe. Maybe the audience doesn't know what a family is. But it's a group of species, they were pretty similar, extremely adaptable, but most of them are marine. By far, and it may be just a matter of, if you live in freshwater, you have to pee a lot, because the whitest constantly soaking through your skin. And so freshwater fishes pee a lot. And for a fish that's tolerates freshwater, but it is mostly adapted to saltwater, they may be putting a lot of energy into the team. It might be as simple as that. It's bloody good question. And I don't think anybody's toyed with that it'd be a good idea for somebody to do that.

Stuart Carlton 5:51
So I'm vaguely remembering I took a bunch of fish like bio classes back in college and grad school. And that's something worth like, osmoregulation. Right. So like, the amount of salt that's in your body is that when they pee? Is that like freshwater fishes pee so much, especially if they come from marine environments.

Dr. John Janssen 6:10
Yeah, so as much as this refers to the movement of water, but it's driven by the salinity of the light versus the water surrounding the fish. So and if you don't believe your blood is salty, then slice your finger and taste it. I don't think you need to do that, because probably everybody's had a nosebleed or something like that. So that means the water moves. If the fish is in fresh water, the water moves in a way to dilute the salts in the fish's body. And so yeah, there's constantly soaking up water and constantly having to pee it out. becomes trickier if the if the water is in seawater, and it's saltier than the fish's blood. So then they have to actually export the salt. Well, in various ways. And actually, there's so like crocodile tears. I mean, there's this the same tear ducts that that we have, but that's how they get rid of excess salt. The saltwater crocodiles and a lot of crocodiles are saltwater, including that one and in the Everglades.

Stuart Carlton 7:19
I know that. So gobi said around gobies in the Great Lakes where they were originally a marine species or saltwater species, and they came in not so much ships or something like that is that the dealer around gobi is a freshwater freshwater species naturally.

Dr. John Janssen 7:33
So now I'm I won't know exactly the details, but the Danu is a tributary of the Black Sea. And they do go up the Danube. But they are well, I don't know how abundant in the Black Sea, but they're definitely as salty as it goes in the Black Sea. In the winter, apparently. And this is just a one sentence anecdote, that gets quoted a lot in papers probably inappropriately in papers. According to the anecdote off Bulgaria, they winter at 50 to 60 meters depth. So Laura asked you a question. So it's winter, along the shore in the Black Sea, where you get the freshwater inputs, the temperatures, when it's freezing, you get ice on the fringe. prexy is salty, but it goes from being freshwater at the surface to salty, down deep. And if the fish in winter at 50 to 60 meters, can you make a guess at what temperature they're at at 50 to 60 meters.

Stuart Carlton 8:35
Um, just above freezing would be my guess.

Dr. John Janssen 8:40
Now it's about seven or eight degrees Celsius, which is going really well above freezing. Yeah, it's a funny thing that I think of water temperatures in Celsius, because that's what I measure in air temperatures in Fahrenheit, because that's what comes in the weather forecasts.

Stuart Carlton 8:53
Well, and Fahrenheit, now we're going wave field, but Fahrenheit is really good for human air temperatures, right? Because it's like zero degrees, your real cold. 100 degrees here real hot. So it really are our lived experiences. We'd like to say it's very suitable for the Fahrenheit where it's Celsius, zero degrees, your real cold 100 degrees, your real dead. And so you get less spread, right? Yeah. Anyway, all right. So we've come We've come far afield from Gobi dogs. I need to return that because I have a business plan that's doing this and so I need to get down into details. So round gobies, they came into the Great Lakes or they throughout the Great Lakes, how they count widespread are they do you think

Dr. John Janssen 9:30
well for Ontario, Erie, Huron and Lake Michigan, which are warm in the summer warm enough that they can spawn and we don't know enough about that? There wherever it's rocky or some kind of habitat like that, then they need some structure to do the responding. The rates on Lake Superior is colder and they're pretty much around harbors there and I don't know the details of all that but they're abundant in Duluth harbor which gets One distributor.

Renie Miles 10:02
So I'm wondering how far south in terms of, you know, beyond the Great Lakes because I know they they beat the barrier in the Illinois River. And and how far south have they gotten?

Dr. John Janssen 10:15
Well, I would have to look at a map. But as long as you bring up the barrier, well, here's here's a real story. So the first Iran reported round gobies around Lake Michigan came from an angler, I think in November 1993, bringing one DNR and I know where that location was. So we heard about that in the winter. And then we checked out the location that spring and then did a dive in Calumet Harbor, which is a clean that's our leads that Lake County that so the harbor is is clean. So when we went into the harbor, so made 1994. And we're immediately surrounded by buildings. So I think well, that's the first report of them actually, in Lake Michigan. They were big enough that they'd probably been there a couple of years, had to have gone through at least a couple of rounds of spawning to get that kind of population density. But it was stunning, but I had worked with them with with Dave Jude previously. So Dave was the first one to report gobies in the Great Lakes over north of Detroit, the St. Clair River are actually keep I first heard about that it was a meeting at the Shedd Aquarium. And I think probably 1991 And we're talking about the need for doing Coastal Research in Lake Michigan. So he came over to the Shedd Aquarium. And Alan Morrison was there and a few other people. So Dave said, we've got there'll be some and the St. Clair River. And I said, I think this is going to be a serious invasion, because our most serious invasions are all coastal marine species. Okay, so like the rock never turned out to be a serious invasion. Because it's not a coastal marine fish. And the marine thing, I think it's just a matter that physically Lake Michigan has not the saltiness as a matter of minutes rock but has strong currents. You know, every few years, we get waves hitting, particularly Chicago, Michigan City where 30 feet high. Something like a rock isn't used to that, but something that lives in the backseat. They know how to adapt to that.

Stuart Carlton 12:43
Because you think of you do think of like the solidity being the dominating sort of physical, you know, characteristic. But what you're saying is that even for fish, there's so even though they're underwater, the waves and the wave action and the currents and stuff can really affect their their suitability for an area. No idea.

Dr. John Janssen 12:59
Yeah, and somebody, I mean, okay, I died a lot. So I know what the currents are like. And I would be in the mood when the waves come up, that they're not too severe, I would be at the beach, in the summer playing with the waves. So you get that physical sense of what a strong wave is, right? And I would serve in maybe four to five foot waves, but not 30 foot 30 foot wave is off short, lower, but me and it'll tear you apart.

Stuart Carlton 13:31
You'll see I'm from the Gulf South. And so before hurricanes will always be people out surfing. You know, sometimes you're like, Oh, that looks fun. Sometimes it looks like well, you're just an idiot. It depends on I guess, the nature of the storm itself.

Dr. John Janssen 13:44
And those people disappear. And then there's a whole new generation of fools, right.

Stuart Carlton 13:49
Exactly. So So you predicted this would be a bad invasion, I guess? Because it was a Marine thing. And you particular accurately I think, and so what has been kind of the effects of it. Like I know that there's a big interaction, I believe there's a big interaction between like the muscles and the gobies and things like that. What are some of the like, you know, big picture effects of the Gobi invasion?

Dr. John Janssen 14:09
How many hours was this? I can't. One of the things that we and I would say, I would credit Dave, Jude and his colleagues at University of Michigan with this was that a major part of the diet is, is the muscles that invaded really, just a few years before that, maybe at the same time knows that gobies don't need muscles to to survive, but they've got Okay, certain groups of fish have what we call two jaws. There's what we call the oral jaws. And then there's jaws in the throat and the jaws in the throat of the gobies they have molar teeth. And they're those are for crowd crushing. Things like clams, and super mussels. quagga mussels are from the same area that's naturally part of a diet. So actually one of the first things we did when when we found to go visit Calumet harbor and it was easier to do at Calumet harbor than other locations was documented the impact of round gobies on on zebra mussels. So but there's a constraint on that, because zebra mussels and zebra mussels at the time they're in cavities under the rock that can be so tight that a Goby can't get in there. So that's the one of the things that we've documented in a couple of papers. And something that, that it's one of those things that says like, yeah, the science is really real, is well, I moved to Wisconsin 21 years ago. So but and we spend time on the dark peninsula, which is rocky on the east side of it, and has lots of gobies they started invading about 1998 or 1999. And the people noticed. So out there, you had almost a decade of swimmers dealing with sharp edge zebra mussels on the rocks. And we're at Sandy, you don't need shoes or anything like that. But the shells are there and your feet get cut up. So they had to start investing in an aqua site, something to preserve, protect the baby to go swimming. But they noticed that the zebra mussels on top of the rocks were gone when the gobies came, which is actually a paper that we documented. But when you hear the local people asking you what, oh, you worked on, blah, blah, blah, and fish in the Great Lakes. So how can we add zebra mussels on the rocks? And then they disappeared when the gopis came in? And I say you said publish that before me useful.

Stuart Carlton 16:59
This is why I'm professor and you're not yes and be doing this interview. You could be on this show right now. So what the Gobi should have done thinking about your salty blood, right? It all comes together because we have salty blood, and people are cutting their feet on the zebra mussels. So the gobies could have just been following people sucking in the salt and they would pee much less. I think if they'd done that.

Dr. John Janssen 17:21
No, that would be the Sea lampreys, totally confused.

Stuart Carlton 17:26
species will have you on for that one another time.

Unknown Speaker 17:29
So I wanted to ask about the gobies and birds. Gobies are bad for birds. Is that? Is that a fact?

Unknown Speaker 17:37
Yeah, maybe as much respect as we have now. And I actually don't deal with that. Here. Although maybe it's a problem here. But it's not as noticeable around traverse Sleeping Bear Dunes wash ups of particularly loons because everybody loves most loons. We see I see loons here, occasionally, but not that often. We do see dead gals. But we've never actually worked on a botulism problem. And I was talking to somebody yesterday about this. Maybe it was an email. Yeah, yeah, I actually was with Dave dude. He said, well, so Dave, shoot. It's like every pioneering thing with round gobies is Dave Jude's. He and his his grad students, Steve Henssler, first reported that the newly hatched gobies will go up into the water column. Okay, and they get you caught up and drift around, which is probably how they got sucked into ballast tanks in the first place. Right. And then then this is a paper by Dave and colleagues at Northwestern Michigan College, but it's just out but it deals with first finding of this morning nest of deep water sculpins in like 180 meters of water. So but they were round gobies down there. And that brings me back to your point. So they're using an unmanned submersible, what we call an ROV, for the work and I've seen these videos. And the round gobies are down at 600 feet in the winter. This was last march right around the solstice and water temperatures to Celsius, four degrees remain sorry, 36 degrees Fahrenheit. Okay. So going back to the Black Sea with gobies migrating offshore in the winter. Yeah, well, they're going down at least 600 feet during the winter. Which brings us to a whole new interesting possibilities that are totally unexplored. I see this thing branching off to infinity. How many hours do you want this in the video? So birds Yeah, but that the gobies to some extent are hanging around. Fish carcasses on the bottom Okay, and if you if you pull up one of those fish carcasses, man, it's the worst smell ever. People attributed the botulism to the round gobies. And the current hypothesis, which might be totally correct, that we always have to consider alternatives is that there's somehow getting it through feeding on zebra mussels, quagga mussels, which are filtering out the botulism bacteria. Okay, but I would be pretty certain that these dead awful carcasses on the bottom that the gobies are feeding on and that's been documented as probably polar botulism, too. Okay, and in the spring, when the Gobi start moving up shallow where the lilies are going to be foraging on them, and balloons can forge, there's a lot of dead fish around. Okay? If you see dead, always washed up. That's like a really big killer, but we see dead airways every spring. If it's not many the goals and terms pick them off, so you don't see them on the beach. It's when the goals and turns are saturated. There's too much food out there, which is even on the beach. Why that was a long answer wasn't?

Stuart Carlton 21:18
No, it's good. So So we're pretty sure the gobies are the pathway to dead birds. But the question is, where does the botulism does it come from the fish carcasses? Or maybe the mussels that that seems to be less certain is that kind of? Yeah, and

Dr. John Janssen 21:33
for as much as I know about botulism, it has to be anaerobic like no oxygen for the toxin to form, you know, inside the body of a dead carcass or inside. Well, whatever. I did save up my soul. If the goby eats it, well, it's dead. I think there's multiple possibilities here. And this really less than a year old discovery by by David and his colleagues, again, being first to do all this stuff. Oh, my God, they sent me an email right after they got out. So otter and this is absolutely beautiful. I can't sleep that night. I'm so excited.

Stuart Carlton 22:15
gobies are invasive. Like you said, they've been a very successful invader like word Gopi darts aside, on the off chance that my Gobi dog business doesn't, you know, take off and become the Gobi dog king of Chicago.

Dr. John Janssen 22:30
You use these in pigs or hot dogs.

Stuart Carlton 22:32
Okay. Yeah. For those who listen to he's pointing to a picture of a cow on his shirt. So far. The lake of Oh, I see the lake effects surf shop. There we go in Milwaukee. Yes. Well, assuming you see, this is why they might be limited to Chicago. But assuming that I don't become the Gobi dog king of Chicago, is there are we getting rid of gobies? Are they just part of the deal now in the lakes?

Dr. John Janssen 22:56
You know, we have a selective tax and Sealand brace, we have them under control. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and technically a sea lamprey is not a fish, the physiology is different. You are more closely related biochemically to around Gobi than around Gobi is

Stuart Carlton 23:15
to a ceiling. Well, that's because of the number of Gobis I've eaten, I think the best

Dr. John Janssen 23:19
thing is to adapt to this situation and that whatever. And it's, I mean, I mean, the whole zebra mussel quagga mussel thing is really complicated. So for example, so one of the things that was discovered first and this was in Lake Erie was that the baby small mouth bass get to just about the right size to feed on newly released from the Nast round gobies and a baby bass that's big enough to do that gets this huge portion of its growth and then as they grow they're targeting the go visit learned how to catch them, which is tricky. And then the growth rate of the small mouth bass up to catching size. They get to like 14 inches which is like usually the the catching size like a whole year earlier. So you know those people are really happy with the gobies otherwise, you know get it just gets really really complicated. And by the way, it is a sin to kill a bass. Almost all bass fishermen release their bass unless they want to have root six or seven pounder on the wall. All right,

Stuart Carlton 24:44
go. I did I know it was a sin to kill a bass but that's good to know.

Dr. John Janssen 24:48
It's, it's in it's the 11th commandment.

Stuart Carlton 24:51
The 11th Okay, you know, I'm still working on there's several that I'm still kind of working on when I do my sort of self. Yeah,

Dr. John Janssen 24:57
there was a tale that got broken

Stuart Carlton 25:00
think, Oh, well, this is really fascinating stuff. But that's actually not why we invited you here on teach me about the Great Lakes. This this week, the reason we invite you on teach me about the Great Lakes is to ask two questions. And the first one is this. If you could choose to have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, which one would you choose?

Dr. John Janssen 25:21
Break down it is a contradiction in terms. Okay. Okay. And then, two days ago, my lovely wife, and I got a sandwich at a vegetarian place. And I decided to try there be Reuben. And I won't advertise the place. But I've never been satisfied with a with a vegetarian movement until that,

Stuart Carlton 25:48
there we go. No, no, go for the advertising. Because my next question is, where do I go in Milwaukee to get a good sandwich? So I love a good tofu or tempeh, Reuben, if there is one, so we're where should I go?

Dr. John Janssen 25:59
Oh, my guys, I don't know, I have to ask my wife.

Stuart Carlton 26:04
Next time I speak with her. Well, so then the second question is, is, is there like a special place in the Great Lakes that you'd like to share with our audience? You know, we try to cultivate this sense of, you know, breadth and depth of this unique, amazing resource. And one way to do that is by sharing special places, so is there a place in the Great Lakes that's special to you?

Dr. John Janssen 26:23
To many of them, but I'll tell you one, that was like, stunning to me. And it's, it's 1986. And I'm traveling to Lake Huron. And there's a submersible manned submersible program going on in the Great Lakes at the time. And the funny thing that I was using the same manned submersible out in Atlantic at the same time, so I knew the capabilities of it, but I never did a dive with it on the Great Lakes, which is amusing, but one of my friends at the University of Michigan was going to be taking a submersible down in Lake Superior. And so he asked me to come over and help him set up. So I did. And it was the first time that I drove the North Shore of Lake Michigan. And then I was going to be doing a sabbatical in the fall Woods Hole Oceanographic. And there was some talk about, well, maybe John should become a full blown oceanographer. Now give up the Great Lakes. And driving that post. I was like, I love doing the marine work. But there's so much unknown here on the Great Lakes and it's such a beautiful, beautiful drive on the North Shore. So I totally recommend that at least for too many places to get out on the beach and there's nobody there and salad.

Stuart Carlton 27:45
So have you ever eaten or go be be honest. Like when you're out there in the field, you're lonely. You pull up a Gobi you maybe you're a little hungry, you know, by yourself. Nobody's looking?

Dr. John Janssen 27:56
What if you were talking to an ornithologist? Would you ask them if they eat their chickadees?

Stuart Carlton 28:00
Well, I mean, yes, if the chickadees were Goby, and we're talking about Kobe dogs, I suppose I

Dr. John Janssen 28:05
would. No, actually don't like fish pretty much.

Stuart Carlton 28:09
No, I took a I took Marine Fisheries biology, I can't remember name of the Prophet. He was like a deep ocean. He got an angler fish named after him. And he just or marine vertebrate, he call it whatever it was, he went over every single type of fish in the ocean. And every one of you like, well, I you know, most people say it doesn't taste good, but I fried it up and it tastes fine. And so that's just how I envisioned every fish person is you know, there was one he said it was a little oily. And I was like, oh, no, how awful. Must that have been? Put?

Dr. John Janssen 28:39
Yeah, I mean, a turning point. I would. I would tolerate some first like a Brooke chart is fine to me. And I used to eat snow until I had to post 800 pounds of smell out of a net. One night and I had I put a couple of ones fresh in the refrigerator, eat in the evening. And then and it was a hot day and things were falling apart at the end. And I put the the the fresh smell in the frying pan in the evening. And it was just the odor of all those decon smelled it was too close to that odor. And I threw the smelt away and I I haven't eaten the smelt since but I have eaten white fish and swordfish and a few other things which are fine, but I don't go out of my way down.

Stuart Carlton 29:33
Oh, goodness gracious. Well, Dr. John Jansen, a professor at the School of Freshwater Sciences at the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, thank you so much for coming on and teaching us all about the Great Lakes

Dr. John Janssen 29:47
Okay, well, thank you for having me.

Stuart Carlton 30:15
Well, new segment in the books. That certainly

Renie Miles 30:18
was fantastic.

Stuart Carlton 30:20
Yes, we certainly got a smart answer. I don't think it answered our question. But we answered many questions. And I asked that

Renie Miles 30:26
question as well. So yeah.

Stuart Carlton 30:30
The best kind of questions. Yeah, everybody who works with John really likes working with him and talks about what an interesting guy he is, and I can I can see why. So really, is there something cool that you learned today? As a result of asking a stupid or less stupid question? No,

Unknown Speaker 30:47
I found gobies pee alot, I never thought about that before.

Stuart Carlton 30:51
I didn't either. That's I think there's a quote about that one of the one of these famous quote dudes from like, the early 20th century said he would never drink water because fish and I've only seen it with a dot, dot dot and P is one thing that could go in that dot dot dot. There are other things I've never I think he's never bothered to look up the quote but that is Yeah, I mean, like Michigan is really just filled with fish pee, isn't it?

Renie Miles 31:15
Yes, as you say and various other things

Stuart Carlton 31:21
it's just data points to consider really just points to consider.

Renie Miles 31:27
That's as far as I go. So

Stuart Carlton 31:30
yeah, that was fascinating to me. And I learned that gopis are different sizes. Of course they've different species in different niches and things like that. But this is something I suffer from and I think a lot of people do is you think invasive species or whatever you think of it as this monolith right and it's not necessarily right

Renie Miles 31:44
yeah, we just know the Gobi we know right? Yep.

Stuart Carlton 31:48
Exactly. Just the Gobi we know that's but I mean, what else can you know but the Gobi you know, I guess. Teach me about the Great Lakes is brought to you by the fine people at Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant and we encourage you to check out the great work we do it ii sea grant.org And of course at ill in secret on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media but mainly Facebook and Twitter. I think we have other ones No, right. Just stick with those. Stick with those in your good. Teach Me about the Great Lakes is produced by hope charters Carolyn Foley Meghan Gunn and Rini miles. Ethan Chitty is our associate producer and our fixer are super fun podcast artwork which one day may become a sticker is by Joel Davenport. The show is edited by the awesome the amazing the incomparable Quinn rose, and I encourage you to check out her work at aspiring robot.com Assuming that she ever gets done editing this episode, which has plenty of work to do. Thanks to me. Anyway, if you have a question or comment about the show, please email it to teach me about the great lakes@gmail.com Leave a message on our hotline at 765496 II SG you can also hit us up on Twitter and teach Great Lakes for Renie miles store Carlton, thanks for listening and keep creating those lakes.