Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript, we apologize for any errors. If you notice any problems, please email the show at teachmeaboutthegreatlakes@gmail.com. Thank you.

Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes. John, welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice s people are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I know a lot about the ungodly amount of coffee that teach me about the Great Lakes associate producer and fixer Ethan shootie drinks every morning. But I don't know a lot about the Great Lakes. And so that is the point of this podcast. And I'm joined today by Illinois-Indiana. Sea Grant strategic communicator Irene Miles, Renie. How are you?

Renie Miles 0:33
I'm good, Stuart. I'm happy to be joining you today. I look forward to our conversation.

Stuart Carlton 0:38
Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm all fired up on coffee. So yeah, I, I got to the office. And so my mother in law is in town. So I'm getting the office early. And and that's good. But so I didn't have a second cup of coffee. And Ethan brought a coffee maker in the office and I went to make coffee. And I realized that I don't know how to make coffee. He's not like a jackass, like so. And so, but he taught me and he told me he drinks two of these pots of coffees a day. Like that explains your productivity compared to mine, I think

Renie Miles 1:06
both on the job and off the job.

Stuart Carlton 1:08
Yeah, exactly. And then he's out there like a beaver working with? Yeah, do you? Are you a coffee person? Really? I can't recall.

Renie Miles 1:15
Yes. In fact, this morning, I was just totally stupefied until I finally until I had my my cup of Joe and look at me now.

Stuart Carlton 1:23
Look at you now. Totally D stupefied. That's how we like it. It's the less typification the better? Well, anyway, for the second episode in the row, I do not have a clever transition into today's guests. That's okay. I'll have a stupefying transition instead. And so that is this weekend, that a couple days after record this probably the day before you're listening to it is international storytellers day. And I'd never heard of this until I saw it bouncing around social media. And I said, Well, that sounds really good. Because one thing is we'd like to talk one thing we'd like to talk about. It's kind of the importance of stories and like the stories that people tell themselves are about the Great Lakes and things like that. And so I was looking around for people to talk to we found a really interesting guest. I think so rather than me, give it all away. Why don't we just go ahead and bring the guests on as I work for you indeed. Our guest today is Dr. Rachel Havrelock. She's a professor of English and the director of the freshwater lab at the University of Illinois in Chicago, Shy Town, the second city. And this was interesting to me, because I did not know that professors of English had something they would call the lab. So I was like, well, we have to talk to this woman. She sounds amazing. Any professor of English is automatically amazing. But then doubly so because of this. Rachel, how are you today?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 2:36
I'm doing great.

Stuart Carlton 2:37
We're so glad to have you on. Thanks for coming. So all right, let's just start with that. you direct the freshwater lab, what is the freshwater lab? What do y'all do?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 2:44
So the the freshwater lab is actually a Humanities Lab. So we really focus on the relationship between people what the weather there at the scale of individuals, neighborhoods, communities, the whole Great Lakes watershed wide. And we're really interested in human relationships with water. And you know, one of the things that mediates and influences the relationship between people and waters infrastructure, right, we sometimes have the great pleasure of like going to the beach of being, you know, on the water by the water. But we also experience it in all kinds of ways that are determined by the by the built environment. So the freshwater lab is really interested in that relationship between people in water, how water impacts human activities and experiences, and how human production social forms economic engagement, how that actually produces the nature of water.

Stuart Carlton 3:51
I think I know what you're saying. But let's see. So you talked about how people's experience with water is sort of mediated or directed by their by the built environment. So what do you mean by that? Do you mean because like, we tend to build right up to the water, what the structures are in or what, what are some examples kind of of what you're talking about there?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 4:05
Yeah. Your example is, is certainly one right. So if we are in a period of rising lake levels, then is that water going to flood somebody's back door? Or are there wetlands there? That's the kind of infrastructure green infrastructure and nature based infrastructure. Are there wetlands there that can hold that water back? Is there a seawall that might protect a certain stretch of shoreline, but direct it somewhere else? Right, maybe onto a community that doesn't have the the tax base or the individual revenue to build the kind of seawall. So that's part of it. But you know, we also, of course, are in a period where eyes have been open. So the whole question of LED service lines. And so there's a key example of how infrastructure has a direct impact on human health. Economic possibility the property value of a home. So you know that question of is the service line lead? Is there treatments, the phosphates to make that safe for consumption? Has that been suspended? Is the lead service line going to be replaced? So, you know, that's a key element of water influencing human life.

Renie Miles 5:22
So how do you go about your work?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 5:23
So the work has a few few different avenues? First of all we do could we conduct community based research to understand how people are experiencing water, and also to really record this whole new era of water leadership? You know, we I think in much of the 19th and 20th century water leadership were either elected officials or engineers or people at utilities, and, you know, those continue to be water leaders. But the kind of changing nature of water geography, the failure of infrastructure, the ongoing or added stressor of climate change, is creating a whole new set of water leaders that are coming from different fields, different communities, and there are great ideas about water, and in particular, about the future of the Great Lakes. So part of what the freshwater lab does is, we go out, we meet these people, we do community based research, we gather stories and information and visions, about people's experience of the lakes and local water. And we analyze and present that. And we try to make it as accessible to the general public as possible. So we create digital storytelling platforms, we have a host of events, also, you know, some of that research is going into recommendations for things that could be built or ways in which the community could get more involved. And last, but not least, you know, I am, I am a professor and I'm really excited that the freshwater lab has programs for leadership and teaching. So also training this young generation of water leaders to you know, really step up and, and allow our part of the world to survive and, and thrive amidst climate change.

Stuart Carlton 7:31
That's really interesting. I've 10 questions related to what you just said, I'll forget nine of them maybe 10. But but so so one thing you say is you analysts, you gather people's stories, and I know you have these websites that I want to talk about. So that's one way you gather stories, maybe also you go out and actually talk to people? Or maybe you did, and maybe you will, again, one day, so and then you say you analyze them? And what kind of analysis are you doing? So the reason I ask is, well, I was a literature major in college. And you know, the professor's there they published, but the main thing that was good about that was you could go read their journal articles, and then you would know what to write on your exam. And then I do like media content and elsewhere look for like frames and things like that. So are you analyzing frames? Or what are you looking at what the narrative?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 8:12
Yeah, so when we go out and gather stories from from individuals from community groups, you know, we're really looking for those common themes. And we're also looking to how those stories, you know, record experiences that aren't being captured any anywhere else. One example of that comes from, you know, say like environmental justice communities that often experienced the worst flooding, you know, the failures of infrastructure, sometimes the most errors in their water bill that can bring really negative outcomes to their lives. And so often, when policy analysts sit down, you know, they're missing this human dimension. So, on that theme, although, you know, we have different methods that we use something that's been really important to the whole team, is a really important concept by a literary scholar named Rob Nixon. And Rob Nixon talks about slow violence. So Nixon says, you know, we're acclimated to the opposite fast violence. These are the you know, the the kind of really tragic shootings or, you know, even the the horrific war we're witnessing now, in Ukraine, you know, on mainstream media, we see a lot of fast violence, and it shapes our responses, our sense of safety or fear where we live, but slow violence involves that accumulation of toxins, the exposure to negative environmental conditions, right, the the public health impacts of something like that. Lead Poisoning through your water service line. That's a kind of a slow violence that also occurs, but it occurs often outside the frame of mainstream analysis. So slow violence, for example, has been one of those themes that we use to frame the material that we get. And so the material that we get, in many cases, serves as kind of evidence for the slow violence going on in the Great Lakes region. But you know, we try not to stop with recording it, which is vital, but we also really engage students, community members, you know, Great Lakes people have like, okay, right, with this kind of evidence, what do we do now? Right? How do we make sure that our region, which I truly believe is going to be an oasis for the world in the 21st century and beyond, but we've got to address that slow violence in our region before we can be that place that can accommodate climate migrants and you know, investors and new business? You know, we've got a we've got to take a look at the way for example, Great Lakes cities have been so battered by segregation deindustrialization as a precondition to the Great Lakes fulfilling its destiny as as an oasis for the world.

Stuart Carlton 11:27
Wow. Slow violence. That's how I'm like, I'm almost speechless. I hadn't thought about that. But I mean, that's exactly the way in. So that's where that power. Oh, yeah. And like you think about Flint, for example, you're talking about the lead in the water and stuff like that. And and it really is, it's, it's just slow. And it often is the powerless, or the less less empowered, I guess, who that affects. That's, that's a really powerful concept. And that ties into this idea of story, right? And so you're helping people to tell their stories and share their stories and putting a name. So I guess that's the deal, right? So we had, like, I hear the name slow violence, and it makes a bunch of things click in my mind. And so I guess is that kind of what you're trying to do with these stories is help people to, to make a click, and not only in their mind, but in the minds, potentially people of the new water leaders who you're talking about?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 12:11
It's absolutely right, because going back to what I said before, that the freshwater lab is really focused on this relationship between people and their water. And also among all the people who share a drinking water source. It's a very, very powerful, unnecessary human connection. Right? I think it's no secret, we're living in a very polarized time. But I've seen in my work and other parts of the world, the real power for people, no matter their ethnic or religious background, no matter their political leanings, it's very, very powerful to gather people around their common source of drinking water, and investigate together, you know, what's the quality of that water? How much is available? How is it being used? who's benefiting? How do you form relationships with something like water? At the freshwater lab, we really believe that stories are those links that form the relationship, right, the stories that we tell about water, influence our orientation towards it, when we can hear from someone who might, you know, also draw from Lake Michigan, for example. And we hear that for some people, you know, they've got a beach for residents only, that's well maintained, where they can really relax and form great memories with friends and family, and that other people, you know, have dangerous effluent, you know, lapping up against their back door. You know, stories are the place where we learn about our water, and we learn about one another in light of that water.

Renie Miles 14:00
So as you go to these communities to hear the stories, how do you ensure that you have good, proper, sufficient rapid representation in terms of different story types that are out there?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 14:12
Yeah, it's a really great questions. So I'll take the example of freshwater stories.com. That's our digital storytelling site about Lake Michigan but has relevance, you know, beyond Lake Michigan as well. And so that was a process where I connected with different water leaders in different communities. And they were really a range of communities, urban rural, reservations, communities of color, affluent suburbs, you know, we really wanted a full spectrum. So I was connected with or reached out to different water leaders. I had hosted at University of Illinois at Chicago, a series of summits where I got some Meet many of the leading lights. And so I visited them and their communities, they connected me with other people, you know, through a whole network of friends and colleagues and public figures, I sort of met a contact in each of the communities we visited. And they helped with the recruitment, right? It wasn't like, you know, statistically scientific, but everywhere we went, we had a really robust crowd. And we usually brought some kind of material to meet one another, then a few reflection points. And then we really opened up the discussion to what people wanted to share. And it's incredible, you know, if you think about Lake Michigan, it's, you know, it's one lake, but the kind of knowledge and connection with that lake, you know, it really is different, the different places that you go. And I continue to learn so much, when I'm able to go out to these communities. And you know, it really shows that local knowledge is so vital, and so rich and deep, and there's so many traditions and so much transmission there. But sometimes, I think, because so many of our media networks are national or international or global, you know, we we forget to focus on that local level, and really tune in to help people have these very distinct experiences based on where their lives where they live.

Stuart Carlton 16:36
Yeah, I'm totally in on this i. So I am, we don't need to go over my life history. But so I was a lit major, but I actually my master's degree is in like, fisheries biology. And I moved into the social science side. And so with that, when I first moved in, I was very suspicious of qualitative research. Like, I go back and look at my original notes. And like, I have a lot of snarky comments in the margin. But like, the longer I've gotten into my career, the more research I've done, the more power that I think there has to draw from that. And it's a different mindset. You mentioned? Well, we don't know, necessarily, statistically, you know, but that's okay. Right. And the point is, is that, like, there's another way, there's a multiple, it's another way of knowing, which is something that cat February, talked about with indigenous peoples on teaching about the Great Lakes episode, I'm not sure, but I'll put it in the, I'll put it in the show notes. And, but I think this is another really powerful way of knowing stuff. So that is, it's really cool to hear,

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 17:27
ya know, I'll just throw in there, you know, just just to not be misunderstood. You know, at the, at the freshwater lab, you know, we completely believe in support and depend upon science. But, you know, these are social issues. And they require participation. In some cases, they, you know, require politics, but it also really requires kind of, you know, communal commitment, you know, everyone who draws from the water getting involved. And those are those changes and policy of behavior and infrastructure. Of course, of course, 100%, you know, it needs science, but the involvement, the motivation, the transformation, this is where the humanities are indispensable, are indispensable as in the way that we understand water. And if I can return to an earlier question about why the freshwater lab, it was through kind of a survey, I did a thinking, okay, who's doing humanistic engagement with the Great Lakes, you know, and I did find, you know, very interesting researchers here and there, but nobody had kind of opened up, you know, this place of humanistic inquiry. And that was one of those lightbulb moments where I said, okay, my life has a purpose. You know, I'm going to convene all of this great work, you know, all of this burgeoning leadership, all of these creative ideas, and start a humanistic lab, about the the Great Lakes and other transboundary water basins.

Stuart Carlton 19:05
So you're talking about the importance of the humanities. Right. And so one term you you use on some of your materials is this idea of citizen humanities, right? We're used to the idea of citizen science, or we started actually calling it community science, because over the last several years, that term citizen has become unusually politicized, I think we can say, but so regardless, citizen humanities, what is that? Exactly? So you know, citizen science or community science, we think about people going out gathering data, they have a worksheet or an app or whatever, and they fire it off, and then it all gets analyzed. What is what is citizen humanities? And why is that important?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 19:39
Yeah. And I'll roll with you and say I've got no attachment to the word citizen. In fact, I have a very distinct orientation towards this word. I really think about the power of inhabitation. We are inhabitants of a basin that contains gains over 20% of the freshwater on Earth. So this notion of acting like an inhabitants, you know, really tuning in to one's watershed wants ecosystem, as well as that human ecosystem where we live is really vital. And we strive to conduct it in two major ways. The first way is getting information and material to the public and very usable in digestible ways. But the other way is providing tools so that your average person right can conduct their own process of learning about their water. One of the central ways or the main tool we've we've created to conduct this form of public humanities is kind of a curriculum, it's like a digital tool on freshwater stories.com on the Get Involved page, and this is our source path, pupil curriculum. So there are a few questions and some really usable digital guides, in which anyone anywhere in the world can go about figuring out what the source of their water is. And then path is all about this vast, complex network of pipes that bring the water to you. Where's the water intake? You know, what's the water main? What's the pipe that brings water into your home made of you know, who's running the pipes? Is it a utility? Is it a municipality? Is it a private corporation, so that's the path section. Because you know, as we say, in the freshwater lab, there's a lot of power in the pipes, you know, they're beneath our feet. But the distribution of water occurs through these networks. And they're largely hidden from view. And the records of them are not very good. So this is the real kind of, you know, community humanities project, like figure out your pipes. The third part is people. And that is about activating this sense of interconnection among people who share a water source, right, our future is entwined. So whether we like each other or not, or agree with each other, you know, politically or culturally or not, we've got a shared fate, and we need to start acting like it. So that sense that section on people is all about thinking about this human inner connection through water source. And also thinking about which communities, you know, really bear the burden of our economic and industrial processes and who benefits. And you know, we need to take that into account when we think about sharing a water source, because what's shared, you know, what's unevenly distributed, and that people section of our source path, people curriculum, also really looks to direct those who are interested towards the community groups doing really creative and vital work. And if they've got the time and inclination, maybe getting involved with those community groups,

Renie Miles 23:18
you know, you referenced that we have 20%, of the world's freshwater. And we think of ourselves as being very watery water plentiful. And this is sort of a segue to a different thing, which is, which is I'm really curious to hear about your efforts in terms of water recycling, and the Great Lakes.

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 23:36
Yes, before I joined, I was deep in my water recycling research. And I think that this is, you know, one of a few major changes that we need in the region, to both protect the Great Lakes and to really think about it what I like to call kind of the watery economic revival that I think is possible in our part of the world. Right now, water recycling mostly occurs in drought stricken areas,

Stuart Carlton 24:08
before we even get there. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that I have no idea what water recycling is, because I don't I mean, I could probably figure it out. But so this is like reusing wastewater, or what is just telling me what is water recycling? Sorry?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 24:20
Yeah. So yeah, let's define water recycling. We hear a lot these days about single use plastics, right? That you probably don't want to use a fork for 20 minutes, you know, throw it away. And then it exists in the ecosystem, you know, for 1000s of years, maybe never degrading? Well, we really need to introduce this idea of single use water, right? We are used to like washing our hands, washing our dishes, it goes down the drain, that water gets treated like waste. And there are massive outlays of money as well as energy to treat that water that gets defined as ways oftentimes to move it across vast distances far away from the site of views. So as we have this single use water, we are also seeing in the American West, the worst drought in 1200 years, the Midwest known for its agriculture is reaching dangerous lows in the groundwater, and still, you know, we're using water one time and throwing it away. So water recycling, you know, sort of intervenes, in that idea that water can ever be wasted emulates the natural cycle that water follows by treating water that's been used once to a very high level to the level of drinking water. And then supplying that for a second use, like in irrigation, or in industrial use, or a data cooling. So if you think about water, I mean, you know, you really only need source water, for drinking, for cooking, you know, for bathing, and sanitation. And then that water can be treated, and put to all those other societal uses, like, only about 15% of the US as water footprint is for domestic uses. You know, that means that there's a huge pile of water, that where we can take that domestic water, we can take the rain, we can treat it to a very high level, and we can supply it conceptually, like we could never ever treat water like waste, right, we could always be cleaning it and reusing it. And that is, you know, without a doubt, the best way to meet drought conditions. Now, we are not in drought conditions in the Great Lakes basin. But you know, in a in a state like mine in Illinois, we've got lakefront communities these days experiencing flooding. And we've got aquifers as close as 15 miles away, that are completely drawn down reaching non viability. So what we need to do right now, and this is what the freshwater labs very busy working on, what we need to do right now is really look at projections for future water needs, particularly in agriculture. Because we cannot do without food just like we cannot do without water. Right? We need to kind of look at those projections, right, we need to look at volumes of wastewater, and we need to kind of address this imbalance in flooding and drought before we have like inundated lakefront communities and completely desiccated agricultural communities. Well, this

Stuart Carlton 27:55
has been a really wide ranging conversation, a lot of fascinating ideas with like water recycling and, and the Source Path people model. I think that's a really powerful way for kind of uncovering sort of maybe your local water story, right. And so that's, that's really cool. So let's send people let's give our listeners some action items, which website should they go to, to start investigating some of this stuff?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 28:15
Great. So in order to investigate your water, wherever you live, the Source Path people curriculum, where we'll call it or tool lives on freshwater stories.com. On the Get Involved page, if you are a person interested in water, particularly the Great Lakes and Lake Michigan, that same website, freshwater stories.com has 15 story rather 12 stories written by 15 authors, all about different issues around along the Great Lakes. Each story is a few minutes long, has some interactive features, and importantly, has some ways to get involved. The freshwater labs second digital storytelling site is all about the Chicago River. So that digital storytelling site is called the backward river.org. It's the backward river because the Chicago River was reversed to flow backward. And something I want to highlight for people there is a really engaging story created by freshwater lab member Tristan Ortiz, that's called the river speaks. And Tristan, you know, took this idea that we're hearing a lot about environmental personhood. You know that a river or lake Erie might stand in a court of law like a person. And Tristan took that idea and created scripts stories for six branches of the Chicago River and worked with Chicago based actors to record those stories in English and Spanish. ish. So there you can go and the branches of the Chicago River in a really entertaining and enlightening way literally speak to you in these in these audio vignettes.

Renie Miles 30:10
I want to just just throw in my, you know, kudos for that because I

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 30:17
that just warms my heart when I listen to someone else. Yeah, so brilliant. Yeah. And that's, that's a BA student at UIC, Tristan Ortiz, you know, completely just like, took all this information and all our work at the lab. And we were we worked on it during the pandemic, so we couldn't do the kind of, you know, community based research we were used to. And Tristan like answered, that was such an incredible creative engagement.

Stuart Carlton 30:48
Rachel, this is really interesting, all the different things you told us about. But that's actually not why we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes this week. The reason we invite you to go and teach me about the lakes is asked two questions, the first of which is this. If you can have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, which would you choose?

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 31:05
Great sandwich for lunch

Stuart Carlton 31:07
Team sandwich. Excellent. And so when I go to Chicago, which I will start doing it again more because we have a lot of staff in Chicago. Where should I go with to get a really great sandwich.

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 31:17
I will give two answers because I'm a plant based eater. So my favorite place for a sandwich is called Upton's optins break room Upton's make some you know great plant based products and they've got this little break room where off off Grand Avenue where you can go and get really amazing sandwiches. So for the meat eaters, right it's Upton's like Upton Sinclair right in light of the jungle. So this is like the answer to Upton Sinclair's The Jungle is Upton's products and then Upton's break room. Yeah, just actually now you've got me thinking about sandwiches You're putting me in the wrong direction

Stuart Carlton 32:02
although I'm at the options website now and right next to opened up in the break room is liberation doughnuts. Yeah, you're right. It's your ideal place. You can question the whole premise of this question by just spending all day right there could be right

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 32:14
there. Those doughnuts are good to have but I'll throw in you know, I'm plant based but but for the meat eaters. There is one remaining like old style classic Chicago deli that's left it's called Manny's Deli. And I've even had a chance to meet the owners, their grandfather opened it. And it is like, you know, remains that kind of old style classic Chicago Deli. Again, I'm not a corned beef eater, but that sandwich you know really does look amazing.

Stuart Carlton 32:49
Oh, I'm excited. Really? If you've been to Manny's you were in the Chicago area you didn't Manny's Yes.

Renie Miles 32:53
Actually many moons ago haven't been there in a good while. Wow, sounds like I need to get back.

Stuart Carlton 32:59
I've got a double off site now actually triple cuz I gotta get my donut to. The second question is this What is a special place in the Great Lakes. So one of the things we're trying to do is create this community around the Great Lakes and stories are actually a part of that. And so we'd like to hear about places that are kind of near and dear to our guests heart, and that are really special to them to sort of encourage our listeners to think about the Great Lakes as a special special resource.

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 33:21
You know, I want to start with the place of my childhood, you know, my for I am an open water swimmer. My my childhood Beach was off Belle Isle, which is an island in the middle of the Detroit River. In my childhood, the city was really going through rapid sea industrialization and defunding along with, you know, really, really significant troubling forms of racial tension and oppression. And Belle Isle, you know, my memories are just such a magic place, right? You just drive across a bridge, get a little bit away from the city and be in this jewel of an islands in the vast and wide Detroit River. And it's just like the greatest place for a beach day, you know, both to swim in the water and be out there and just to be you know, with other Detroiters and a more peaceful space. So, you know, Belisle is the really really great memories from my childhood there. And these days now that I'm a Chicago in a former air strip mix field was transformed into a Northerly Island, which is like a you know, reconstructed wetland and flood barrier and it is similar to Belle Isle. It's somewhere you can go out there and walk or buy, you know, Sit by the water. And you can, you know, see the city behind you and the lake shimmering in front of you. And it's just again one of these sites of an urban oasis, where you know, you can still be in the city and doing all and getting involved with all that's there. But really, you know, these places like Belisle and North really islands, they're in the middle of cities. They're not remote, but the kind of peace that they provide, and a place to connect to the water. It's really extraordinary. It's you know, again, I credit Belle Isle, with bringing a lot of joy into my childhood and Northerly Island is just continues to be a great a great urban refuge.

Stuart Carlton 35:48
That is wonderful. Well, Dr. Rachel hammerlock, professor of English and director of the freshwater lab and purveyor of cool storytelling related websites, all at the University of Illinois, Chicago, thank you for coming on, and teaching us all about the Great Lakes.

Dr. Rachel Havrelock 36:04
Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. And I'll see you at least for the Upton's part of your sandwich visit to Chicago Perfect,

Stuart Carlton 36:11
well, I will we will definitely be in touch that'll be great.

That was really great. I'm really interested in this idea of story and the stories we tell to each other. It's a different spin from what we usually get on this show, right? We talked to a lot of, you know, research, like hardcore researcher and scientist types. And this is a different approach to get some different things. It's really neat. Yeah, I,

Renie Miles 36:56
I really enjoyed it. It's, you know, in my work as a communicator, I tried to connect the science with stories. So, so this was up my alley.

Stuart Carlton 37:05
So it really is interesting. While I have to I recommend everybody go out, in fact, go look at her go to the websites are really neat freshwater stories.com and the backward river.org. Go look at that. And then I'll tell you what, here's an action item. Right now, when you go to those. If you have a great lake story that you want to share, just send it to us. Teach me about the great lakes@gmail.com or call up our hotline and leave it and if it's good, we'll love we'll we'll play it on the show. It's 765496 I SG is our hotline. Great. So as a communicator, really what do you have? What do you have going on right now you're working on any kind of big pieces?

Renie Miles 37:37
Well, I just I just finished a story about our research project focused on green infrastructure and the importance of incorporating soil data. And, you know, it brought into Chicago communities, Midlothian, and Calumet City, a multidisciplinary team of researchers. So there was many kind of angles to talk about the story. And yeah, I think is a great

Stuart Carlton 38:01
story. Yeah, that's cool. So that'll be on our website soon. I assume if it's not, it's up now. Yeah, it's up now. And so what it suggests they, they so they were all working together in Chicago? And like, what's the what's the high level kind of summary and then people can go dig into the details. So was this was the soil data? One, is that right? Yeah, well, this

Renie Miles 38:17
soils are that it's important to understand soils, when you go about designing green infrastructure, because it's, it's better to kind of work with what's in the land as it is. And Mary Pat McGuire, kind of led this project, she led she did, she made this project, she, she thinks about it in a really holistic manner, in terms of that we kind of need to connect with the land, you know, like, the soils and the and the history of the region, and the end that particular location of where, where you're planning to bring nature back

Stuart Carlton 38:53
sort of a different version of connection with the, you know, we're talking about connecting with a water via stories, and now connecting with the land via the way we design infrastructure. Exactly, yeah, that's what I'm gonna think about more, maybe they're more guests on is is like that connection between infrastructure and like, the way that we interact with our world, because I just haven't, hadn't thought about that. You know, I, I, this was related to the Ukraine stuff, which is sad. But someone pointed out that like, in many ways, cities are the world's greatest collaborative project. Because they're built by, you know, just hundreds and 1000s of people over sometimes hundreds of years, right. It's like, the different areas get built out and whatever. And so when you look at it's sort of this huge, collaborative sort of organism that people make, and this was in the tragic context of people, you know, just one person can can destroy them. And so that's, that's obviously horrible. But but but the idea that, you know, cities are this thing that we construct together. And so we shape each other's stories and each other's interactions in ways that maybe we don't think about because it's very bottom up the way that it happens. And so it's just interesting to think about all of that and how Access.

Renie Miles 40:00
Yeah, I think in especially in major metropolitan areas people are going about their business but there's like a, like we're all up next to each other and we're connected and it's, I think, I think we're more in touch with with with that sense of society

Stuart Carlton 40:22
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